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Late night childcare
Selfish or sign of the times?


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#26 Cat Burglar

Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:10 PM

Im really disappointed in some of the stuff Ive seen on EB lately. This could have been an informative and constructive article about improvements in the system

instead it uses emotive words like selfish and sad in the same sentence as childcare just to stir the pot. Why would use of childcare be selfish or sad AT ALL? childcare is GOOD for kids, it socializes and educates them. 99% of parents use it for work or study. Those who use it to go out drinking are going to do that anyway, or drink in front of the kids if they werent in care. And for those who just use it occasionally because they need to catch up on sleep or even (shock horror) to go out and have a night to themselves, theres NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! being a parent is hard work and people deserve a break occasionallly (although I only use child care because I work)

On a serious note, childcare hours are inflexible enough for parents who work 9-5 (I REALLY struggle to make 6pm pickup due to rubbish public transport options) so I only imagine how hard it is for those who have to work evenings or shifts.

Edited by Soccer Mum, 02 August 2012 - 09:29 PM.


#27 Bam1

Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Soccer Mum @ 02/08/2012, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Im really disappointed in some of the stuff Ive seen on EB lately. This could have been an informative and constructive article about improvements in the system


I agree between this blogger seemingly forgetting that we are not in the 50s anymore and another whining (rather badly) over not being able to get her pram everywhere, there's not a lot of high quality thought going on.

Maybe Pinky Mckay could write them all she seems to understand modern parenting.

#28 QueenElsa

Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

Another health worker here whose DH often travels for work. Even my day shifts finish at 6, child care finishes at 6, what am I meant to do?

We do a mixture of day care and nannies in order to work. I don't need pity, am happy with my lot, but later finishes would be fab.

#29 Jane Jetson

Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE
Can we go back to the simple life where you can make it that only one parent does work outside of the home? Can we chose to not have the latest of everthing, go back to the old fashion method of baking your meals and treats from scratch to cut down on the grocery bill, making your own clothes? Can we save for those special things rather than relying on the credit card for everything? Do we always have to living in the city (for some families i know this is yes)?


I'm so tired of this premise that child care exists, and women work, because we *have* to to meet the mortgage, or because women have been brainwashed into some form of mindless consumerism.

If we as a society elect to attempt to go back to this naively described simple life, we leave little or no provision for those women who want to work, who love their job or their career, who can't understand why their education and their experience should be brushed aside the moment they reproduce.

As it is, child care is not perfect (expensive, difficult to access, in many cases sub-standard, too bad if a meeting runs late and you can't get there before 6) but at least those of us who usually work standard hours have access to it. (One day DH and I will be booked to go on different conferences or work evenings at the same time, and then it's going to be interesting fighting over who gets to work that night.)

Shift workers and those who are regularly expected to work into the evening don't have access to that care, and ideally they should. Why's my career more important than a nurse's, just because I work 9-5 (ish) and she doesn't? I'm sure there's a big market for it. And I don't see it as selfish or sad, or even a sign of the times (shift workers have always been around). How about "practical solution"? It would mess up the alliteration, but be a lot more appropriate as a descriptor.

#30 CallMeFeral

Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:02 PM

It would be wonderful. I hate how pre-kids I could choose to work 'off peak' and avoid horrendous sydney traffic by sleeping in, going in late, working late. But thanks to inflexible childcare I don't get a choice about that, which is really just more wasted time in traffic for everyone, with no benefit.

I wouldn't leave them there for LONGER hours... but I'd sure like to leave them there for DIFFERENT hours!

#31 whitelights

Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:28 AM

My first thought was 'what a great idea, and how beneficial for our doctors/nurses/paramedics/police officers/chefs/cleaners/etc

QUOTE (*Mrs Puddles* @ 02/08/2012, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And, I think I'd be willing to leave my monkey's at daycare at night if I had a work event or a wedding or something to attend - the kids KNOW their carers, so it would be less stressful for them then booking a random babysitter...


This.

I wouldn't be dumping my kids in night care every weekend to go out clubbing until I need to be dragged home because I can barely walk because I outgrew that about 20 years ago and it's no longer my idea of fun, but weekend night care would be nice option to have for those things like weddings or work christmas parties where I can't always find a babysitter.


QUOTE (gingembre @ 02/08/2012, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm so tired of this premise that child care exists, and women work, because we *have* to to meet the mortgage, or because women have been brainwashed into some form of mindless consumerism.

If we as a society elect to attempt to go back to this naively described simple life, we leave little or no provision for those women who want to work, who love their job or their career, who can't understand why their education and their experience should be brushed aside the moment they reproduce.


This again.

1. Many families need to have both parents working to meet the rising costs of living. A 'simple life' is not going to make a lot of difference when housing costs can easily take up more than half a wage, whether it be a mortgage or rent.
2. We might be able to scrape by on just my husband's income, but I actually enjoy working and enjoy my job and wanted to continue my career, having invested many years into developing it. It also means I can provide my children with more than the very bare necessities. I don't think working so we can afford things like soccer and gymnastics lessons and family vacations is buying into materialism, but rather that I want my children to have opportunities and a well rounded childhood with a variety of experiences. Working allows me to provide that.

#32 Cat Burglar

Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:33 AM

I question the figures given that 45% of families have both parents working - most studies Ive read say 80% (not including those on parental leave I guess)

As for living in cities, neither DH or my job exists outside capital cities, and our aging parents who need our assistance live nearby. We both need to work to survive
As for returning to the simple life, pps have pointed out, 'simple' doesnt mean cheaper. and believe it or not, a lot of women actually (shock, horror) enjoy working. Is it considered selfish if men go to work? In these times many women want to protect themselves against being left with nothing if something happens to their partner, or they split up. Selfish - or looking after the long term needs of the family?

Can I also ask why Justine thinks an in home nanny is so much better than daycare? Genuine question. It might be better for some kids such as very young or shy kids, but for some kids who are social and outgoing such as my DD, daycare is WAY better. She gets bored at home. She THRIVES on daycare.

Also not everyone wants a stranger in their house, and I personally feel more comfortable with the fact that there are multiple carers at daycare. What if one carer has an accident? Having more than one carer at all times also helps safeguard against a carer who might yell at children or otherwise act inappropriately. Of course some people prefer nannies which Im not critiscising ( I have friends who are nannies  wink.gif ) but many prefer day care.


The daycare model is way more sustainable, obviously. How can we afford for every family that wants or needs to have a nanny, it simply doesnt make economic sense. The childcare model is much more financially sustainable.

And it seems that Justine is arguing that kids being at daycare overnight are neglected, yet kids left with a nanny overnight are loved and cared for. Can she explain a bit more what the difference is? We have built up a fantastic relationship with DDs day carers and she runs and hugs them when she sees them. We make christmas and easter gifts for them!  Neglected? Unloved? Really?

Edited by Soccer Mum, 03 August 2012 - 08:20 AM.


#33 Tecopa

Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:49 AM

As a single mum with her own business this would actual help me reconnect with society! Currently my DS goes a few days a week so I can have a break and also do my work. I don't have any other support. Babysitters at night are very expensive and unreliable too and if I ask a friend to babysit then I don't actually have them to go out with which is a bit of a Catch 22.

If there was the option of having the occasional night care that was affordable I'd happily trade in some of the days! I could go out for dinner, see a movie, or attend some social groups and yes maybe even have a few drinks, maybe even get to sleep in till 7am or whenever I'd have to go pick him up!

There just isn't the social structure I need to make me feel part of the world during the day and even though my boy is almost three I still feel isolated as when I was at home with a newborn. Yes I can go to movies, art galleries and eat in a cafe occasionally - but it's all usually alone as my friends are working!

And after a while that just ads to the disconnect I feel. I have tried starting social groups during the day but haven't really had a huge amount of turnup to events. Even being able to pick hours for daycare that went until 8 or 9pm would be enough for me to attend some of the after 5pm events/get togethers that many take for granted.

Edited by Tecopa, 03 August 2012 - 07:51 AM.


#34 kpingitquiet

Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

I think it's fantastic! Weekend care would've allowed me to take the amazing job that I found a few months back that required I work the same Saturdays as my husband. Overnight care would've meant said husband hadn't spent his childhood as the one "in charge" of his sisters, overnight, while MIL was working her graveyard ER nursing shift.

As an aside, I still find it difficult to comprehend the whole "these days, with both parents working" concept. Great-grandma was back to work in the ready-to-wear store (where great-grandpa also worked)  when her #1 and #2 kids were barely out of diapers, and that was in 1936. No daycare other than nannies and neighbors, then.

#35 _Alana_

Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:54 AM

As a child care worker with a night shift partner I see it as a sign of our times. Not sad at all, all for it and I think it should have started a long time ago. Wow I might be able to make some money if I take a night shift in this job !!

#36 Coffeegirl

Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:14 AM

Ummh. I'm not sure exactly what the blogger is trying to say?  That there is no need for this type of care un our society?  That these types of services dont't exist, but should?

Extended hours care has been available in our area for the past 10+ years.
http://www.shirechildcare.com.au/koala_child_care_centre

It is on the grounds of the hospital, but anyone can access the services if required.  

Koala Child Care Centre is a community Centre which is based on the grounds of Sutherland Hospital.  The Centre has extended hours from 6.45pm till 10.45pm.  Day care hours are from 6.45pm till 6.00pm and evening care hours are 1.00pm to 10.45pm.  There are three rooms within the Centre, 0-2’s, 2-3’s and the 3-5’s room.  We are licensed for 10 children in the 0-2’s room, 16 in the 2-3’s room and 30 in the 3-5’s room.  For evening care we are licensed for 10 children aged from 6 weeks to 11 years old and are able to have 2 children per night aged from 0-2 year olds.



Obviously they are catering to a need in our society.   And yes I believe that there are parents who occasionally may need evening babysitting because they don't have a support network that allows them this.   Or the parents may feel more at ease knowing that their child is being cared for by trained professionals while they 'dog forbid  rolleyes.gif ) have a night off once a year.

#37 Holidayromp

Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:38 AM

Great idea if there are no other options and parents NEED to do shiftwork.

BUT It reeks of live to work not work to live.  Having this sort of options can be great but then be detrimental to family life.  It is going to make it too easy for just about round the clock care for children.  What is the point of having a family if basically they will be spending just about their entire lives in care.

There has to be a balance especially with school aged children - you don't see the kids all day and now you don't see the kids all night.  Younger kid - you may see them through the day???Maybe or does a parent need to sleep and the kid gets shunted off to care.  What is the point.

Is jobs soooooo important these days that BOTH parents are in a position that neither of them are willing to compromise to ensure that the child is getting quality time at home instead of being the care of strangers.  It would be all too easy just to shove junior into care for longer and longer periods.

It is a really sad sign of the times that care is getting severly overused.  I understand it for single parents that need to work but as a couple cannot it not be worked out that someone is at least home for the kids when they would like parent there?

What about the kids - what do they think about spending more and more time away from the family home?

I understand the cost of living is getting higher but is it basic mindset of keeping up with the joneses ensuring that longer and longer childcare hours are required?  I feel that people are getting too used to being on the good money and that is clouding their judgement to as whether they need to be.  Children are only that for a very short time what about sacrificing some time to be with them and enjoy them.  I have a funny feeling that the vast majority of 'parents' that look back once their child is of an age they can care for themselves and wish that they had spent more time with them instead of being slaves to their jobs and bunging the kids into childcare.

The question arises - who is the parent when the children are in care longer than the hours then they are in their own home?

#38 Bachelormum

Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:41 AM

Yes, i think it's sad for the children if they're not in their home environment and I agree that subsidised home based-nannying is a better option. However, one thing this idea acknowledges is that it takes a village to raise a child.

#39 babatjie

Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:12 AM

I would find it incredibly sad for MY child. I couldn't do it. I would find another option, just like we did now, so I can be there for our two children.

But, every family has to do what works for them. I just know that it isn't for us.

#40 Guest_~ Pearl ~_*

Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:32 AM

I think its a great idea especially for people like ambulance officers, nurses etc who do shift work. I also think its great for single parents or seperated parents that work odd shifts or have to be on call and dont have family support. Some kids are left home alone because their parents HAVE to go to work to make enough money to survive, I think they are much better off at a daycare centre then home alone.

I wouldnt use it because I am lucky enough to have family support but not everyone is that lucky.

#41 DEVOCEAN

Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:43 AM

Had it of been available years ago, I probably would not have given up work at the nursing home.Night shift was fantastic, but DH started a job that paid a bit more at night.

#42 JinksNewton

Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:51 AM

QUOTE
I understand the cost of living is getting higher but is it basic mindset of keeping up with the joneses ensuring
that longer and longer childcare hours are required?


Umm, no, it would be the basic mindset of the general public who have decided that they want to be able to access any business that they want, 24/7. When I started in retail (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth) shops were open 9-5 Mon-Fri, 9-12 Sat, Closed Sunday, late night shopping Thursday ONLY.

Now we are open 6-9pm Mon-Fri, 6-5 pm on Sat, 11-5 on Sundays. Due to prep work and cleaning up, people are usually rostered on at least one hour each side of those times. In places like Sydney opening hours are even longer. When stores will be closed for one day people act like there's a nuclear winter coming on.

It's not just supermarkets, it's food outlets, petrol stations, pubs, basically retail generally. If you honestly think that employees working in those industries can pick and choose what hours to work, to fit in with their partner's schedules, then you obviously haven't worked in the industry. Theoretically you can, in practice you just nod and agree with what you're given or your hours get dropped or made even more difficult. You might get a good boss who helps you out, but sometimes you don't.

These jobs don't pay enough that one person can just walk away, even when you live somewhere cheap like Adelaide. It's not people living to work, it's people working to survive, and it's a huge portion of the Australian population doing these jobs that ARE necessary.

But you know what? Let's go back to the old days where if you wanted to visit a store after 5pm you would be SOL, if you ran out of petrol in the evenings tough luck. I personally would love to have those days back, so all of my friends in retail could actually have some sort of family life again.

Of course, it means everyone else would have to get off their entitled bums and plan their shopping around those hours,  and the four day closures over Christmas and Easter, and being shut every Sunday. But hey, you want us to be at home looking after our kids, so I'm sure you're willing to help us out by altering your lifestyle to fit the new SOA.

Right?

Didn't think so.

Oh and FWIW I think extended childcare hours are a great idea (obviously)

#43 HRH Countrymel

Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:52 AM

I think it is a great idea, not 'sad'.

There are so many people who cannot work, are working in inappropriate fields, simply because they have to fit around the childcare hours.

Of course it would lovely if we all lived in a communal, helpful, village environment... but we don't.

Childcare that reflects the reality of peoples working life is a great step forward.



#44 Jane Jetson

Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:11 AM

What a load of fifties-flavoured rubbish, Holidayromp.

Basically your argument is "oh noes! People are doing things differently to me. There must be something wrong with them."

It's repeatedly stated here, and every time a thread comes up vilifying working mothers, that double-income families are not about keeping up with the Joneses. They are primarily about being able to afford basics (many of us include not renting forever in this category, for which in my case I do not apologise) and in the case of many, about having meaningful employment rather than attempting to emulate a fabricated ideal, the heyday of which was fleeting and limited to one generation. The Joneses are, and continue to be, a straw man argument perpetuated by people who cannot get their heads around the concept that the smiling 50s nuclear family with a Stepford wife at home does not and has never worked for everyone.

Redkris has outlined the problems facing many service workers these days. Shift workers (factories, nurses, police, media workers) have always been around and to date have mostly faced significant barriers to returning to work. Access to extended hours child care could at least partially solve this problem - or would you prefer we as a society pretend nobody needs after-hours care, like we did in the 50s?

My grandparents did a lot of shift work back then. Their kids were partially supervised by neighbours, but mostly left to roam around and become accomplished shoplifters. Latchkey kids were quite normal in working-class neighbourhoods. That's where denying the need for childcare ultimately leads, or more commonly these days to low employability after years and years out of the workforce.

Further, nobody is saying "great! I'll put the kids in care 16 hours a day instead of eight". Positive responses so far are about when the hours are, not about increasing them.

QUOTE
The question arises - who is the parent when the children are in care longer than the hours then they are in their own home?


It does nothing of the sort. The parents are the parents. Another straw man argument couched as an insult.

Edited to add a bit.

Edited by gingembre, 03 August 2012 - 11:13 AM.


#45 Bam1

Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:24 AM

QUOTE (gingembre @ 03/08/2012, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What a load of fifties-flavoured rubbish, Holidayromp.


Yes I was thinking the same thing but couldn't be bothered replying to such backwards thinking and probably couldn't have put my case forward as well as you did gingembre & Max Gravitas (below)

I don't have a funny feeling I have experience and now my older 2 are in high school I can look back at their time in childcare and have very happy thoughts - happy that we did not live in poverty, happy that we could afford basic holidays, happy that we could afford family outings, happy that I was capable of both raising my children and having a career, happy to provide a good role model for my daughters, happy of the friends my children still have who they met in childcare.

I'm happy that my children were raised as a family with my husband and I pretty much sharing all responsibilities, rather than myself taking the main role.

I am also happy that I did not need daycare outside the standard hours otherwise life certainly would have been a lot harder survivng on my DH's minimum wage.

Edited by Bam1, 03 August 2012 - 01:29 PM.


#46 RichardParker

Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:29 AM

Holiday Romp you post is so full of hyperbole I find it hard to take it seriously enough to respond.  Put simply, working parents love their kids as much as you love yours, they just have a job.  

And as you say, children are children for such a short time.  After that they are teenagers, and require a lot more money than they did as children.  Then they are adults, and don't need care of any kind.  It makes sense to keep developing your career and paying off the house so that when the teenagers cost more, or the adults need help setting up their lives, you can help them out.  It's not about buying an xBox when the kids are in primary school.  

ANd if you think that kids suffer from being looked after by other people (not strangers - their carers are usually consistent in quality child-care), I can tell you that's nothing compared to growing up in poverty, or with a mother who stayed at home to be with the children and spent most of her time being anxious about not having enough money.  

Can everybody can or wants to live the way you do - that doesn't make them less than adequate parents.

#47 Datrys

Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

I think it would be awesome.  Two examples of my own come to mind.  Until recently, both DH and I worked on Sunday mornings.  We were lucky that DH was able to take DD with him and the church he works for was willing to basically care for her while he did his thing; but had that not worked, we certainly wouldn't have had childcare options.  I'm glad we didn't have to argue about whose job was more important and who was going to resign!

Secondly, next year I need to do a clinical placement.  It's only going to be for 18 weeks, but it will be gruelling and child care is likely to be an issue.  I still don't know how I'm going to make it work, and it's a source of massive stress for me that my qualification might stand in jeopardy if, when the time comes, I just don't have care.

QUOTE (Myprincesses @ 02/08/2012, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But do we have to stick with societies expectation (and yes some do)? Can we go back to the simple life where you can make it that only one parent does work outside of the home? Can we chose to not have the latest of everthing, go back to the old fashion method of baking your meals and treats from scratch to cut down on the grocery bill, making your own clothes? Can we save for those special things rather than relying on the credit card for everything? Do we always have to living in the city (for some families i know this is yes)?

Society expectations is no different to peer pressure at school... Too succeed you need all this!!! But is that what you want? Is that what you desire for your family? Really?

Maybe families need to sit down and really look closely out their family, and what they want for their family (and I am not talking about material possessions). And then work out how to achieve that? Does it mean relocating? Does it mean foregoing a few things so both parents don't have to work? Who knows? only you can decide and yes you can make the decisions. You then need to put it into action. Only then will society expectations change.


This isn't about society's expectations.  Why should I be a domestic slave when I'm capable of so much more, and domestic slavery leaves me depressed, angry and overwhelmed with a sense of futility?  What I want is to be a contributing member of society in a way which uses my gifts and strengths.  To achieve that, I do need some childcare.  I hope that society's expectations can change to accommodate that!

QUOTE (kpingitquiet @ 03/08/2012, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As an aside, I still find it difficult to comprehend the whole "these days, with both parents working" concept. Great-grandma was back to work in the ready-to-wear store (where great-grandpa also worked)  when her #1 and #2 kids were barely out of diapers, and that was in 1936. No daycare other than nannies and neighbors, then.


DH and I are the first generation - on both sides of our families - in which both parents will be working while DD is small.  My mother didn't go back to work until I was 12.  My grandmothers did not work at all.  On DH's side it's a similar picture.  And we're certainly copping judgement for it from our older relatives!

#48 wendylady

Posted 03 August 2012 - 03:41 PM

We run our own business and a few years ago (before bub) decided to make our office hours 10-6 pm. We now have staff who work those hours and we're all happy to avoid the worst of peak hour transit. As the boss though we're often there 11 am til 7 or 8pm to wrap up or deal with international clients. However now that we have a bub in care I MUST to knock off early to pick her up because our centre us says I must be there at 5.55pm! or I cop a fine to cover the costs of staff remaining after hours. A few more hours would be good for those nights we have deadlines. I doubt she'd be in care more than 8 hours a day, but shifting them a few hours later than current norm would suit our family schedule so much better.

We'll deal with the issues of real school starting at 9am when we get there original.gif

#49 miriams

Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:15 PM

Nice idea but ,as it is, they struggle to find childcare workers. I'm not sure how it would work with penalty rates, people willing to do the shifts etc?  I doubt the service could be used as occasional care for the odd night out either... it would be great if centers were allowed to offer it though , many parents who might otherwise not be able to take on a night-time shift would be able to do so.

#50 jade06

Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:15 AM

I think it is a poorly written post.

... in some ways it tries to bring out parental guilt.




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