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Deliberate incident which has injured DD


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#26 Feralmummacat

Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:51 AM

OP

I hope your DD is getting better and there is not a serious injury.

We had a similar issue when DS1 was 2.5 at CC. There was a child (3 ish) that was very "physical" with the smaller children. He would push and shove them around al ot. We had talked to the staff as DS1 was scared of the child and the centre said they were working with the parents on the child's behavioral issues. We were fine with this.

A couple of weeks later I was dropping DS1 off and the child ran over to DS1, hit him in the head then push him over, proceeded to jump on top of him and hit him in the head while he was on the ground. At this stage I had pulled the kid off my child, who was hysterical at this stage with a blooded noses. This was in front of 2 carers and his mother that did not move during or after the incident. His mother said nothing to me, she never apologies for her child's actions or even ever asked if DS1 was OK (even 2 years later while still at the same centre). I removed DS1 for the day and my husband and I went back to talk to the centre manager.

The thing that angered me the most was the centre managers reaction, she called it an "alleged" incident and would not talk about the incident even though I saw it all. We just wanted to know that they were taking steps to make sure it did not happen again. After a couple of weeks and another child being injured he was moved up to a room with older child (he was still bigger than most of these kids). I felt for the staff that had to manage the child, years later I talked to the staff and they thanked my husband and I for following up and pushing the centre manager as their attempts to get things done had all failed and they were worried about the other kids too.

In our case I would say it was deliberate, DS1 was not holding a toy and he was not in the kids way. The kid walked across the room to hit him. He wanted attention, this was later confirmed by senior staff. OP as I was not present at your DD incident I would never comment on if it was deliberate or not. Deliberate is something "done consciously and intentionally".

You expect pushing and shoving etc at childcare as yes they are kids learning boundaries but there are boundaries of acceptable behaviour. It is the centre's responsibility to provide a safe "environment" and it is also parents responsibility to work with the centre.

Edited by mummacat, 07 September 2012 - 08:54 AM.


#27 Soontobegran

Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:56 AM

QUOTE (fancie @ 07/09/2012, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OP did say that the Director of the centre said the centre would like him removed.


Which is a really unprofessional thing to say to her.


#28 corbel

Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:03 AM

It sounds very upsetting for you and your DD OP. I am glad that her actual eye hasnt been damaged and hope that there is no fracture.

After reading all the replies my only thought would be that this is a prime example of the lack of resources available to kinders, child care centres and schools in being able to care for and support all of their students. I hope the centre has been responsive but I do think their attitude and frustration regarding this child is uncalled for and that their anger should be directed the inadequate funding allocation which has meant they are struggling to cater for the care of children who might require additional work. The problem in this case is not the staff or the children or even the parents, but the pathetic funding meaning that the few staff they are able to engage are often well undertrained in dealing with anything but what would be considered the norm. JMHO *steps off soapbox*

#29 Cath42

Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:05 AM

QUOTE (wenchwitch @ 06/09/2012, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Omg I saw your fb photos and it looks pretty serious. He really should be immediately removed from the centre until a decision is made. This is definitely not in the realms of normal. He obviously needs help which hopefully he will now receive but at present he is too much of a danger to be in the centre with the inadequate level of supervision/support. I truly hope she has no longterm damage.

(I am a mother to a kid who has ADHD/aspergers so do have some experience of anger issues so please dont anyone think I am not sympathetic to the child with issues but this goes way beyond what is acceptable)


I, too, have a son with Aspergers, so I'm well aware of the difficulties faced by special needs children and their parents. That said, I agree with what wenchwitch has said here. There is nothing more upsetting than having your child sustain an injury like that at the hands of another child. I went through something like this with my daughter when she was 2. She was attending a day care centre where another child bit her day after day, leaving terrible marks. Yes, there were incident reports filed each time and the centre staff went through all the usual processes, but at the end of the day my child was being injured at the hands of another child and all anybody seemed to care about was the rights of the offending child. In the end, I took my daughter out of the centre and couldn't get her into another one. I ended up having to pay a friend $300 per week to care for her while I was at work until she was 4 and we moved interstate, and of course I wasn't eligible for the child care benefit or any rebates because it was a private arrangement.

I feel your pain, OP. What has happened here is completely unacceptable and the director of the centre knows it. However, I doubt that adequate steps will be taken to address the situation. I disagree with those who would say that this child ought to be allowed to stay at the centre regardless of his violent behaviour. If he can't be managed properly, then the centre is not helping him at all and an alternative arrangement that will better meet his needs ought to be found for him. It is just not good enough for the safety of many children to be compromised so that one child can be accomodated. I wonder if this kid's parents have been shown a photograph of your daughter's eye. If any of my kids EVER injured another kid like that at day care, I'd be so mortified that I'd remove my child from the centre straight away. For the record, my Aspergers child (who is now 10) had problems with some day care arrangements. He wasn't aggressive but he was disruptive, and on two occasions I removed him from arrangements that obviously weren't working for him or, because of his behaviour, for the other kids who attended. It's called taking responsibility for your child's behaviour, and I think we can all think of some parents we know who don't understand that concept.

I hope your daughter's eye turns out to be okay. What a dreadful thing to happen.

#30 madmother

Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:12 AM

QUOTE
If he can't be managed properly, then the centre is not helping him at all and an alternative arrangement that will better meet his needs ought to be found for him.


Would love to know where these alternative arrangements can be found?

Please, do tell - I have a friend who is facing this very issue with her 5 year old. Would love to be able to tell her of these options.  huh.gif

#31 Lightning_bug

Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:46 AM

QUOTE (fancie @ 07/09/2012, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The OP didn't say that the child pushed her child "out of the way".  

It would seem that he ran across the playground to push the children. Not to gain access to equipment but for the purpose of pushing them.


So we're both making assumptions, justl ike the op, based on the OP's limited knowledge about the other child.  Which is only natural.  We're filling the gaps.

However - for me the question is - did he intentionally push her into playground equipment or was that an accidental consequence he wouldn't have forseen?

#32 FlutterbyBlue

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:04 AM

QUOTE (madmother @ 07/09/2012, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
HE didn't cause the injury directly - the play equipment did. Yes, he pushed her, but seriously? How many kids PUSH or SHOVE?

It is a terrible ACCIDENT caused by a child acting like a child.  rolleyes.gif



My XBIL once pushed my sister, but apparently she 'fell of her own volition' (his words).  Actions have consequences and whether or not this child has special needs, the other children need to be safe.

OP, I hope your little girl is fine and that she (and you) manage to feel better soon.

#33 baddmammajamma

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:15 AM

MASSIVE difference between a grown man who abuses his wife and a 4-year-old child who struggles to control his anger.

OP, I hope that your daughter is feeling better soon. I hope that the center comes up with a plan that adequately addresses your concerns without vilifying another young child.

Black eyes are no fun (my preschool boyfriend, who didn't have special needs and who didn't have a deliberate agenda, gave me one in a case of overzealous play...these things, as unfortunate as they are, do happen with young kids).

#34 madmother

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:26 AM

This is what astounds me, and to be honest, infuriates me.

Posters here are comparing a four year old child to the actions of an adult, or even a teenager? Honestly, cannot fathom how they manage to link those actions in their teeny brains.

rolleyes.gif

#35 Mpjp is feral

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:30 AM

QUOTE (FlutterbyBlue @ 07/09/2012, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My XBIL once pushed my sister, but apparently she 'fell of her own volition' (his words).  Actions have consequences and whether or not this child has special needs, the other children need to be safe.

OP, I hope your little girl is fine and that she (and you) manage to feel better soon.


What an utterly ridiculous comparison. Unless of course your BIL had a mental age of a 4 year old (who is he has SN's may possibly have the mental age of someone even younger).

#36 Soontobegran

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:41 AM

This thread makes me sad.
There seem to be so many assumptions about this child being hashed out by people who really don't know.

We do want to send our children to CC or pre school and not have them hurt but it is the nature of the age and the location that means incidents will regretably happen but then they can happen at home too.
I think it is poor form for the director of the centre to be telling the OP that the child has needs they can't cope with and they want him removed.
If a child was removed every time there was a pushing incident our centres would be empty.
I feel for the OP, our kids have been both victims and perpetrators resulting in injuries and I never felt the need to remove them from the source but work with the centre to see how we can work towards preventing it happen again.

#37 madmother

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

I doubt if he had that age group cognitive skills that he would use a term like "volition", eh?

happy.gif

#38 LookMumNoHands

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE (soontobegran @ 07/09/2012, 10:41 AM)
14893221[/url]']
This thread makes me sad.
There seem to be so many assumptions about this child being hashed out by people who really don't know.

We do want to send our children to CC or pre school and not have them hurt but it is the nature of the age and the location that means incidents will regretably happen but then they can happen at home too.
I think it is poor form for the director of the centre to be telling the OP that the child has needs they can't cope with and they want him removed.
If a child was removed every time there was a pushing incident our centres would be empty.
I feel for the OP, our kids have been both victims and perpetrators resulting in injuries and I never felt the need to remove them from the source but work with the centre to see how we can work towards preventing it happen again.

Love this post.
From a very concerned mum who has a 6yo with anger management issues, and is doing everything in her power to help him overcome these issues, this thread is making me feel like I have no right to be sending DS to school. Don't you people realise that good parents can have a child with anger management issues? What do you expect parents like myself do?




#39 EsmeLennox

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:57 AM

QUOTE (idignantlyright @ 07/09/2012, 05:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why should she think about it?
Should I have stopped and thought about the blood and possible broken nose(thankfully it wasn't) when a child deliberately slammed my childs face into a bus window?
This child was also known to have anger issues. His parents didn't give a damn and tried to put the blame back on my child. Their DS went on to cause serious harm to other kids in high school as well.


He pushed the child, the playground equipment didn't jump up and hurt her.

Yes some accidents are just that. However sometimes the child does need to have help in managing their behaviour so others are not harmed like this. I wouldn't be pulling her out if she was okay with going back. However I would be making sure that steps were taken so this couldn't happen again.



She should think about it because the child is 4! If the child were a bit older, and a bit more capable ot understanding action=consequence my reaction might actually be a little different, but a 4 year old doesn't think about consequences at all!

I get how hard it is to be logical and rational when your child is involved, I found it pretty hard to be compassionate when my child was repeatedly bitten by the same child at childcare, but I had to keep reminding myself that this was a young child we were talking about. And her actions appeared to be quite 'deliberate' too. After investigation though this child turned out to have a hearing difficulty. Once this was sorted the biting stopped.

Edited by Jemstar, 07 September 2012 - 10:58 AM.


#40 Feral Becky

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE (LookMumNoHands @ 07/09/2012, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Love this post.
From a very concerned mum who has a 6yo with anger management issues, and is doing everything in her power to help him overcome these issues, this thread is making me feel like I have no right to be sending DS to school. Don't you people realise that good parents can have a child with anger management issues? What do you expect parents like myself do?


I hope people won't be offended by me saying this but at the moment we are trying to train a rehomed puppy that barks and acts aggressive to other people/dogs on walks. The easy option would be to keep her home but twice a day we are out walking and socialising her, rewarding the good behaviour and trying our best to minimise the bad behaviour

The only way LookMumNoHands son can learn is to send him to school with support. The days when kids were locked up have long gone.

(Again, I hope no one was offended with the puppy analogy)


#41 julz78

Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:59 AM

That is awful OP I hope your little girl id feeling better soon and there isn't a more serious injury hidden behind the bruising. Must say I'm shocked that people are suggesting that a 4  yr old boy doesn't know any better my 18 month old knows not to push, hit, bite and hurt people. Anger management issues and special needs aside every child should be safe at daycare/preschool/school. I don't feel the blame lays with the child but clearly some action needs to be put in place to prevent incidents like this in the future I wouldn't like to speculate on what that action should be because I'm not privy to all the information but I hope a suitable outcome for all is reached.

#42 Cath42

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:09 AM

QUOTE (madmother @ 07/09/2012, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would love to know where these alternative arrangements can be found?

Please, do tell - I have a friend who is facing this very issue with her 5 year old. Would love to be able to tell her of these options.  huh.gif


Depending on where her child is at (ie. day care or school), she might like to look at family day care if there are no places available at suitable child care centres. In the end I found a family day care place for my Aspergers child (but couldn't get one for his younger sister) and it was a much better arrangement for him. School has been another challenge, but I found a really good public primary school where the staff are making school a positive experience for him. I really had to 'shop around' for a school and I was fortunate that his special needs meant he could go 'out of area' once I found the right school. I firmly believe he wouldn't have done as well in the private primary school system. Having said that, I've found a private high school that has a really good track record with ASD/ADHD kids and I'm very hopeful that things will go well there. Of course, I'm fortunate to have always lived in capital cities (Darwin and now the Sydney area), where there are far more options than there are in regional or rural areas. Parents in regional and rural areas have it very tough.

Honestly, I do understand what it's like to have a child who isn't really suited to mainstream situations. It's terribly hard at times, but it's hard for everybody. It's hard for the child, it's hard for the parents, it's hard for the child carers and it's hard for other children who attend. And it's often an issue of competing human rights, in the sense that each person involved feels that their rights are being impeded or ignored. But at the end of the day, common sense and fairness have to prevail. Kids can't be sustaining dreadful injuries or being constantly disrupted while under-resourced staff are trying to cope with a child who is a serious management problem. That kind of situation is unfair to everybody involved.

#43 bonnybabe

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:10 AM

QUOTE (wenchwitch @ 06/09/2012, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Omg I saw your fb photos and it looks pretty serious. He really should be immediately removed from the centre until a decision is made. This is definitely not in the realms of normal. He obviously needs help which hopefully he will now receive but at present he is too much of a danger to be in the centre with the inadequate level of supervision/support. I truly hope she has no longterm damage.

(I am a mother to a kid who has ADHD/aspergers so do have some experience of anger issues so please dont anyone think I am not sympathetic to the child with issues but this goes way beyond what is acceptable)



Such an over reaction! its not like this kid pummeled the girl with his fists, he pushed her, and she happened to fall on something!  Even the best behaved kids will push each other sometimes.  You could take her out, but what is to say some other kid at the next centre won't have a bad day and push your child, this time off some play equipment?

I agree the boy sounds like he needs help, but with that comes a bit of compassion as well, kicking him out won't help.

#44 bonnybabe

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:12 AM

QUOTE (LindsayMK @ 07/09/2012, 10:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope people won't be offended by me saying this but at the moment we are trying to train a rehomed puppy that barks and acts aggressive to other people/dogs on walks. The easy option would be to keep her home but twice a day we are out walking and socialising her, rewarding the good behaviour and trying our best to minimise the bad behaviour

The only way LookMumNoHands son can learn is to send him to school with support. The days when kids were locked up have long gone.

(Again, I hope no one was offended with the puppy analogy)



absolutely.

#45 julz78

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:27 AM

QUOTE (LindsayMK @ 07/09/2012, 10:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope people won't be offended by me saying this but at the moment we are trying to train a rehomed puppy that barks and acts aggressive to other people/dogs on walks. The easy option would be to keep her home but twice a day we are out walking and socialising her, rewarding the good behaviour and trying our best to minimise the bad behaviour

The only way LookMumNoHands son can learn is to send him to school with support. The days when kids were locked up have long gone.

(Again, I hope no one was offended with the puppy analogy)


I find a serious flaw with your puppy analogy which is that if your puppy acts out agressively and bites/seriously injures another animal/person there is a good chance your puppy will be out to sleep or muzzled. This is obviously not going to occur with children who cause injury to others but they are not kept on a leash either. Whilst I agree with your sentitments that no child should be locked up at home kept away from society because of behavioural issue I don't really think the puppy analogy is comparable.

#46 The 8th Plum

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:30 AM

I'm glad you're getting x-rays done. It is distressing when your child is hurt, my DS still has scars on his face from being scratched at childcare for the second time by another child 2 years ago.

Plenty of children older than 4 lash out with a push - I was deliberately pushed over by a classmate when I was 6, hit a table on the way down and lost 6 teeth & was knocked out. Classmate had intended to push me, was horrified at result. Never occurred to him that might happen!

I'm not saying what happened was acceptable, but children do not consider potential consequences in the same way adults do. They might want to push someone over, they don't think about what else might happen.


I hope your daughter doesn't have anything more serious than a black eye. I think the key factor is whether you are happy with the centre's response to her injury.

#47 FlutterbyBlue

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:30 AM

The point of my earlier post was not to suggest that a 4 year old should be (or could be) compared with an adult.  It was that actions have consequences and some of the PP's seemed to be suggesting that the push or shove, was irrelevant and that the equipment was the problem.
The problem, in my opinion, was that the centre did not have adequate measures in place to ensure that the 4 year old did not hurt any of the other children.  Blaming anyone other than the system (which is woefully inadequate) seems a little short sighted.  Children can, and do, move very quickly at times but that doesn't mean that someone else should be considered collateral damage.

#48 Feral Becky

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:30 AM

Fair enough julz78, I take those comments on board original.gif

#49 bonnybabe

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:34 AM

QUOTE (FlutterbyBlue @ 07/09/2012, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The point of my earlier post was not to suggest that a 4 year old should be (or could be) compared with an adult.  It was that actions have consequences and some of the PP's seemed to be suggesting that the push or shove, was irrelevant and that the equipment was the problem.
The problem, in my opinion, was that the centre did not have adequate measures in place to ensure that the 4 year old did not hurt any of the other children.  Blaming anyone other than the system (which is woefully inadequate) seems a little short sighted.  Children can, and do, move very quickly at times but that doesn't mean that someone else should be considered collateral damage.



They have a whole seperate teacher for this child! no centre can do more than that without excluding the child from normal activities.  I can assure you they will be going through so much behavioural work with this kid, and probably seeing a pediatrician also to get it sorted before school starts.

#50 InsertAwesomeHere

Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:34 AM

My son was biting when in daycare, it happened everyday for 2 wks and nothing I could do would stop it as he wasn't doing it at home.

I was given a weeks notice to find another centre despite the fact that I'd been there for years and they'd done nothing to help with the biting.. Off track. Long story short I was given 1 weeks notice and had to find another centre for an 18 month old in full time care.




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