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The gender gap is widening


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#1 Feral like a Lemon

Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:36 AM

http://www.theage.com.au/national/gender-p...0103-2c718.html

Has anyone read this? I'm a bit speechless. I don't get why we value our girls so much less the our boys. Do our girls not deserve equal pay?

#2 FeralEsme

Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

Everyone deserves equal pay. Gender shouldn't come into it at all. It's ridiculous.

#3 Angelot

Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:43 AM

One thing the article didn't mention, which I wondered about, was whether men and women tended to apply for the same jobs at the same rate.  Do women pitch at slightly lower paid jobs, which they think they can get as new graduates, where men pitch at jobs which would be better paid but perceived as harder to get?

#4 76 feral others

Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:44 AM

I will read it, but I'm scared to. I've been feeling so downtrodden lately reading more and more things that seem to be against equality. It's so disheartening and it's making my mood down in the dumps. Why does everything seem to be against us? Why is what we have between our legs so dividing? How, in this day and age are people still seeing us as 2nd best? Why is it not only men, but other women also that are holding us back? Why do people think the feminist's fight was won years ago and there's nothing left to fix?

I was going to start a rant about what I've been feeling lately, but I thought I'd use this thread lol. Off to read the link and get more depressed at what the future holds for my daughter.

#5 50ftqueenie

Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

QUOTE (Ange Vert @ 04/01/2013, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One thing the article didn't mention, which I wondered about, was whether men and women tended to apply for the same jobs at the same rate.  Do women pitch at slightly lower paid jobs, which they think they can get as new graduates, where men pitch at jobs which would be better paid but perceived as harder to get?


I think there is probably something in this, in addition to the usual problems of "boys club" industries like Architecture and Law, and the undervaluing of women's abilities in general.

I too despair for my daughter on days like these.

#6 Feral like a Lemon

Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

I despair for my daughter too. She is reason for us being here, to afford her with better opportunities in a fairer world. Okay, we're not India (God knows their girls deserve so much more) and we're not South Africa or so many other places, but reading that the gap in widening not shrinking screams slippery slope and it's very disheartening.
Ange Vert, this article is US based but it goes a long way to debunking the ambition myth:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archiv...age-gap/265744/


#7 Beancat

Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

I have read this and am not surprised.

Girls/women are notoriously bad at selling their abilities and taking a hard line on salary negotiation. These abilities do not come naturally to women.  We need to teach our girls the confidence to negotiate hard and objectively.  We need to instill in them the confidenfe to believe that their contribution is worthy.

I recently took a redundancy but was paid better than the other females in my group.  Most of my female friends are paid poorly.  They seem to see asking for a pay raise as a persoal thing and dont want to upset the apple cart.

Ladies, you need to promote and sell your worthwhile skills/attributes and get the best price for your contribution.  It is no different to selling your house/car etc

#8 IsolaBella

Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:12 AM

I am with beancat on this.

I always kept my mouth shut when salary discussions came up at work.... I knew I was earning more then my senior (male) but did not want to rock any boats as I was offically a junior (had come in from different area).

I always went for jobs which were outside my comfort zone and talked up my skills. I was earning more then the males.



#9 katpaws

Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

It will interesting to see how all this goes in the future. More women are undertaking higher education than men these days and are more likely to succeed in their studies. This will have to affect the gender inequality of pay rates, surely.




#10 Feral like a Lemon

Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:44 AM

QUOTE (katpaws @ 04/01/2013, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It will interesting to see how all this goes in the future. More women are undertaking higher education than men these days and are more likely to succeed in their studies. This will have to affect the gender inequality of pay rates, surely.


I don't know. More women have been doing HE for decades now. There are more women in the workforce than ever before and yet there it is - widening.



#11 B.feral3

Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

QUOTE (Ange Vert @ 04/01/2013, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One thing the article didn't mention, which I wondered about, was whether men and women tended to apply for the same jobs at the same rate.  Do women pitch at slightly lower paid jobs, which they think they can get as new graduates, where men pitch at jobs which would be better paid but perceived as harder to get?


I think this is spot on. Actually, the whole 'gender pay inequality' thing annoys me a bit. More women opt to work in teaching and nursing, more men in engineering and IT for example. Teaching and nursing don't pay as much nor is there scope for promotion and pay increase as in engineering and IT. Women can feel free to do a degree in engineering but they don't. My husband is a civil engineer. They started with ONE female in his first year but she changed degrees. By term 2 first year there were about 250 males, 0 females. I wonder what the ratio is for a nursing degree or teaching for that matter?

My friends husband works at the mines. He's on 180k a year. He doesn't work with any females. To be honest I'd rather work on a reception desk for $22 an hour than work at the mines for $180k. That's my decision, no is forcing that decision on me. If I want to get tickets to operate heavy machinery then it's my prerogative. No one is stopping me.

It's not inequality if females choose to take on more of the lower paying roles in society which averages out to lower pay for women across the board. In fact, I left my previous industry and am currently doing a degree, which after graduation, will earn me less money than I did before!! If more females take on lower paying nurturing roles such as nursing, teaching, aged care, child care etc then perhaps the sexes really are not the same in that respect. It certainly doesn't mean they are valued less in society like has been said in PP. In fact, they are probably valued more!!

The only way I can see there being gender inequality is if a male and female apply for the SAME position, and one gets paid more than the other or one gets the job and the other doesn't based entirely on gender. That IS gender inequality. You can't make a blanket statement though and talk about the massive pay gap between men and women when women are not working in the higher paid industries by choice.

#12 Angelot

Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:08 AM

Ah, Bek, I think that is the point.  Men and women in the same or comparable positions, in the same industry, are showing this gap.

Anecdotally I've experienced this.  When I worked as a cubicle dweller, the guy in the next cubicle and I had the same job, just working with different clients.  He was offered a contract with a bigger number in it than I was (and I had a degree and he didn't!)

#13 InsertAwesomeHere

Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

I earn more than most of the men in the same position as me. Mostly because I'm a full time Government employee and they are on contract.

I don't think that article is a true reflection of women vs men pay.

Like PP's have said there are various other factors that may not have been taken into consideration like the fact that women will go for flexibility over income or may not step outside their comfort zone to go for a better paying job as they consider themselves not good enough or not qualified enough. I understand that, it's scary.

But factors like the ones mentioned in here today would change those figures i'm sure.

#14 ILBB

Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

The gender gap is with graduates in the exact same profession Bec+3.

#15 76 feral others

Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

But why are fields that are predominantly female fields lower paid? Why is nursing and teaching paid less than predominantly male fields?

#16 Angelot

Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (Gloriosa @ 04/01/2013, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But why are fields that are predominantly female fields lower paid? Why is nursing and teaching paid less than predominantly male fields?


Because they're hard fields to make profitable?

#17 Beancat

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE (Gloriosa @ 04/01/2013, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But why are fields that are predominantly female fields lower paid? Why is nursing and teaching paid less than predominantly male fields?


Becuase the people who represent those professionals are usually women and women need to harden up when it comes to negotiation and putting themselves forward for challenging roles!  I am sorry but its true.  I have been in senior management for years and you should see the difference in negotiation when it comes to offering a man or female a position.

Also, these roles are often seen as predominatly using soft/maternal skills.  These skills for some reason are not hightly valued by either the participants in the sector or the general public (which I don't agree with).  There is also a "martyr" type culture in these professions, ie "I don't get paid enough, but who is going to help these people if I don't"

I have mentored many junior women/grads who think if they just sit back and wait and be a nice team member and work hard the opportunities will come.....well they don't

#18 fruitbat72

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

Nurses and teachers do not generate income - if anything, we are expensive

#19 76 feral others

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

QUOTE (fruitbat72 @ 04/01/2013, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nurses and teachers do not generate income - if anything, we are expensive


But doctors in public health would be the same and more expensive right?

I think Beancat's answer was a good one.

#20 steppy

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

This is why pay should always be stated in job advertisements. Maybe later people can bargain, but it shouldn't be a case of "Oh, a woman got the job, now it is 50000 instead of 55000".

#21 sarkazm76

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:09 PM

The article lists a table of 10 professions where men make more... but then also says:

Women graduates earned more in seven occupations, including pharmacy, earth and computer sciences.


But then goes on to focus only on women making less.  Don't get me wrong, I agree that if 2 people are going for a job then the pay offerred should be the same regardless of their gender!  But I think there is a lot more to the story and agree with PP, and the above info, that while this may be the case in some industries the reverse can be said for other industries where men make more.
As an aside....
I have a male friend who wanted to be a nurse and was studying to do so in the late 70's-early 80's and he got fantastic feedback from all medical staff, patients he worked with and top grades.  When training was over he was NOT offerred a positon at the hospital.  The head Matron (it was pretty much up to her) didn't like men in her field and didn't like him because while he was training he went about making sure there was staff up to that point) and he was in the union.... so she just cited "bad feedback") as her reasoning and everyone accepted it depsite all the written evidence to the contrary.  Out of the 9 male trainees, 1 got a place.  ALL of the females got a place.  My friend did not become a nurse and is now a therapist instead.

I cannot imagine that the company I work for would pay based on gender.  They usually know what they will be paying for the POSITION before they advertise for it.  The only thing that would change it is the persons experience and skills!


#22 cesca

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

I agree that it's probably something to do with negotiating skills.  

I am TERRIBLE at negotiating.  It's something I hate with a passion.  I am good at what I do, but I've never once asked for a pay rise.  As a result, I've been offered one payrise in my working life.  I've also always just rolled over and accepted whatever pathetic salary I've been offered, as I figure that "oh well, at least it's a job, and they want me!"

My husband, on the other hand, is a tough guy negotiator.  He recently got a job with poor pay - he demanded and got a big payrise and better conditions.

He can't understand why I undervalue my skills so much.

It's very depressing when I, who has a university degree and a diploma, am earning less than guys with zero experience and no qualifications.  If I wanted to go out, put on a hi-vis jacket and safety boots and work out on a roading crew all day holding a Stop/Go sign I'd be paid more than what I earn now.

#23 sarkazm76

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:14 PM

PS.... agree with Beancat too.  When I moved jobs internally a male was hired to do my previous job and was immediately on more money then me.  When I found out I screamed at my boss for a good 1/2 an hour biggrin.gif  Not only that but this new guy wasn't doing ALL of my job - I still did some of it!!  My pay was adjusted but I had to wait for actual pay review time a month or so later.  I was very very mad.  And even more annoyed that it took replacing me for him to learn my value!  Thankfully now that is not the case and I'm also on a proper performance review system now - in which if you want a pay rise each year you set goals then rate yourself on them and you have to talk yourself up to get what you deserve.  Last year I got the biggest increase of all our salaried staff they told me biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Gotta fight for your rights!


#24 vanessa71

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

The graduates that start at the law firm where DH is a partner are paid the same, whether they are male or female. Negotiation doesn't really come into then, but probably would after a few years.



#25 Bart.

Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:31 PM

The article was poorly presented, but I still agree with those who've said it's negotiating skills.  I'm terrible at it as well and completely fold when it comes time to talk salary, almost as though I should be grateful I'm getting paid at all.  In a culture that is still patriarchal, I think women generally need to stand a bit louder and prouder; however, I guess it's hard to move on from millennia of subservient conditioning?




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