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Decision re: Non Vaccinators Support Group


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#101 Zeppelina

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Freakypet @ 24/01/2013, 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
rolleyes.gif right, that's really gonna happen, because this thread is a very rare anomaly and non-vaxxer's are normally encouraged to explain their reasons and discussion is calm with no name calling on either sides......... mellow.gif

I have repeatedly seen posters (calmly) asking anti-vaxxers to provide research - peer-reviewed, real, actual credible research - to back up their beliefs. In many vax threads. So yes, I believe non-vaxxers are encouraged to explain their reasons. (However, these requests are usually ignored.)

#102 Sif

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

QUOTE
We have not really had the problem of false data and misleading websites posted in the home birth forum. It is also highly frequented
.

As they say... 'Build it and they will come!' Or perhaps that is what you're afraid of?  dry.gif

#103 F.E.B.E

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

I had one member contact admin while the thread was closed over the last couple of weeks. I just don't see the need for it, let alone a whole forum.

In any case we will monitor vaccination discussions and making sure that everyone is able to have their say.

#104 kadoodle

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are but stuff still happens.  Up thread someone linked to Saba Button's case with the flu vax.  WA was set up to trial giving the vax to under 5's (?).  First the government sent out a letter offering the free vax, and warning of the dangers and deaths of the flu season.  Ok fair enough.  So many parents took up the offer.  And kids started having reactions.  The health authorities dismissed it.  I clearly remember them on the news saying, "no nothing to worry about, it's all normal.  The reason we're seeing more reactions is because more kids are having the vax".  On it went for days - denying and reassurance from the authorities - including the day Saba Button got her vax.   It shouldn't have happened but it did.  Yes it's rare but it does happen and EB's disdain and dismissal for some parents' concerns is unhelpful.

This article too talks of the Flu vax http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/featu...6-1226063484330


One extreme reaction out of how many doses?

There will always be adverse reactions to medicine.  My DH is ana to penicillin. He nearly died after taking prescribed Eurithramicyn for pneumonia.  My kids will get themselves some anti-biotics if they come down with pneumonia though.  Otherwise they are sure to die.

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the home birth analogy is a good one.  I'm pretty sure the AMA is passionately against home births and has the 'science' to back it up?


Are they?  I thought it was an insurance thing rather than a professional one.


#105 purplekitty

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the home birth analogy is a good one.  I'm pretty sure the AMA is passionately against home births and has the 'science' to back it up?
Homebirthing is a personal decision that only effects your family so advocating for it and influencing people doesn't have the same repercussions.
Even so, if a poster went in there and suggested something like recuss. equipment wasn't necessary it would get a response.

QUOTE
PK, all those examples would be moderated by EB as it's medical advice.
Not if you say "that is what I did", rather than this is what you should do.
It also requires a decision on what is bad medical advice by a moderator on a continual and timely basis, which isn't easy.

I'm not going to apologise for not wanting to see bad advice being spread on a parenting site whether it be suggested incorrect doses of medications,drugs contraindicated in pregnancy or myths about vaccination.
These are some of the things I'm passionate about just as others have topics on EB that push their buttons and they don't hesitate to defend them.


The AMA is a union not a professional organisation and only represents a percentage of doctors.
ETA: What I mean is you should be considering what the Colleges say ,not the AMA ,not that they are not professional as in "unprofessional"

Edited by purplekitty, 24 January 2013 - 10:25 PM.


#106 Soontobegran

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:19 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What about the home birth forum?  Babies have died at home, the AMA are against them.  Are we going to see that forum shut down?

This analogy is crazy.
The choice to homebirth and it's possible risks will only affect the family, the choice to not vaccinate is putting the community at risk.

Non vaxxers need to live through an epidemic of a disease to understand, it is so selfish to rely on the good will of the majority who choose vaccination to keep their own children safe.

#107 Sif

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:24 PM

QUOTE
I have repeatedly seen posters (calmly) asking anti-vaxxers to provide research - peer-reviewed, real, actual credible research - to back up their beliefs. In many vax threads. So yes, I believe non-vaxxers are encouraged to explain their reasons. (However, these requests are usually ignored.)


Has anyone considered we may not need a forum to convince ourselves (or anyone else) not to vaccinate, but rather for emotional support as we encounter judgement and rudeness from people who refuse to even consider the research we come across or the anecdotes of real life reactions we have experienced or heard of from others who have experienced them and then been scoffed at.

My children had real adverse reactions and a real medical doctor advised us to hold off vaccinating but saying that in the wider EB community always results in a round of, 'I just don't believe you.' From people who weren't there and haven't spoken with our real life paediatric immunologist.

That's the problem here, even though not vaccinating is our legal right and we are choosing not to vaccinate *our* children based on real medical advice, our choice is not supported on this site and we are actively discouraged from discussing our experience or seeking emotional support for the subsequent discrimination we have experienced in society for choosing not to exacerbate and prolong our children's suffering.

Pro-vaxxers are so sure they have all the right answers all the time, they cannot tolerate even the emotional support of an despised minority.

#108 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE
Non vaxxers need to live through an epidemic of a disease to understand, it is so selfish to rely on the good will of the majority who choose vaccination to keep their own children safe.


Well said.  Do you think those of us who chose to vaccinate didn't take into account the known risks involved?  Those risks are not just about our own children, but are for the community as well.



#109 soapy

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:27 PM

Fantastic!

#110 Froyohoho

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

Well done EB.

#111 kadoodle

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

Sif, if your kids couldn't be immunized because of adverse reactions, wouldn't that put you in the unable rather than unwilling pile?

A friend of mine can't vax her DS, as he has leukemia. She needs all the support she can get.  Is that the kind of support group you're talking about?

#112 purplekitty

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In regards to the risks to the community, how many adults are walking around unprotected?  Hands up who is up to date with all their boosters?   And what % of the adult population could say the same?   Very few I imagine.
This has been asked so many times you must know the vaccination status of most of us in the thread.


#113 Tree Sage

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:35 PM

QUOTE (soontobegran @ 24/01/2013, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This analogy is crazy.
The choice to homebirth and it's possible risks will only affect the family, the choice to not vaccinate is putting the community at risk.


And yet didnt EB say they closed the anti vaxxer because they can not be seen to be encouraging medical advice or some such thing?

Technically, when medical advice mostly goes against home birthing EB should be seen to support that either.

I dont understand how people can not vax. I disagree with them not vaxing.
But I also disagree with the witch hunts that frequently occur on this board and the rampant cronyism and they way people are treated like they are stupid creatures incapable of reading something without losing their brain over it and the ability to form their own opinion.

Shutting down something because a group of people had a tantrum over it is, in my opinion, pretty pathetic.


#114 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

Freakypet, I'm sure you probably are quite correct on the high percentage of adults who haven't kept up to date with boosters.

I confess I may not be - I've had whooping cough and tetanus boosters, but nothing else since full medical checkups during last pregnancy (8 years ago) when they said I was up to date.  I am a bit ashamed to admit that I'm not sure if I should have had any other boosters since then.  I'm pretty sure they tested my rubella immunity and it was ok, but not sure what else they checked for.

You raise a very valid point, in my opinion, adults probably should be more vigilant.



#115 Tree Sage

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Freakypet @ 24/01/2013, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
... pity that there is such a hatred for anything different here...

sad.gif


and for an opinion that doesnt fit the EB "ethos" or conform to the lastest trend of the "pack"

#116 kadoodle

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, no, this was not an extreme reaction.   This was a complete f*&k up from the authorities.  Even they admit that much (more or less).  One girl did die in Queensland too (although they can't say it was the vax, nor can they say it wasn't).

In regards to the risks to the community, how many adults are walking around unprotected?  Hands up who is up to date with all their boosters?   And what % of the adult population could say the same?   Very few I imagine.


Do they admit it?  Because Thalidomide victims waited 40 years.  They seemed to jump on and rectify the situation in a more timely manner than other drug miscues.

I also think vaccine reminders need to be sent to adults in the same way pap test reminders are.  So many people seem to think that once you've had your shots in high school, that's it.  That needs to be redressed.

#117 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE
and for an opinion that doesnt fit the EB "ethos" or conform to the lastest trend of the "pack"


Oh, for the love of all things decent, it's not an "ethos", "trend" or "pack"!  It's about the weight of overwhelming scientific evidence vs unproven theories!  Why can you not see that?  WHY?





#118 Guest_LeChatNinjah_*

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:44 PM

And it's not hatred.  It's frustration, despair, headdeskiness, wanting to educate, more despair, but not hate.

A wee bit of crossness, perhaps, but that stems from having friends with seriously immunocompromised children being put at high risk of death unnecessarily every time they went out in public.  That'll bring on a wee bit of cross in most people, I would have thought.

Edited by LeChatNinjah, 24 January 2013 - 10:46 PM.


#119 Tree Sage

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

QUOTE (LeChatNinjah @ 24/01/2013, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, for the love of all things decent, it's not an "ethos", "trend" or "pack"!  It's about the weight of overwhelming scientific evidence vs unproven theories!  Why can you not see that?  WHY?


I just see it for what it is. THis isnt about anti vaxxing, the issues here go much deeper.

Look at anything that goes against the mainstream here.
Look at what happens to people who have different opinions.
They get bullied, called names, harassed etc.

SOme people here spend so much time apparently moderating everyone else's behaviour they forget to monitor their own. ( and I am not talking about just official moderators, I am talking about the unofficial self appointed EB mob moderators who like to run around the forums en masse and take down anyone with a different view to them)

Do people have the right to demand a sub forum be taken down that has nothing to do with them?
Do these same people have the right to claim "influence" to get things changed to the way they want it?

Someone in another forum was asking about mass racism.
Well, take out the racisim and insert that word with any other mainstream EB ideal and it is VERY easy to see how such things are possible. Personal vendettas and attacks are too often used here and in my opinion it is the prolific and most well known posters who are generally the worst.



#120 Sif

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:55 PM

Kadoodle, no it doesn't. There's a difference between having a medical exemption from vaccinating (which almost never extends to subsequent children anyway) and being advised by a medical doctor to postpone vaccinations on two children until their natural immune system has matured.

The latter falls under Conscientious Objector, despite the anecdotal evidence that my two younger children have not suffered they hyper immunity reaction our paedriatric immunologist identified in the older two.

To put myself even more in the firing line I have some very serious long term concerns along the lines of prophylactic removal of tonsils and over prescribing of antibiotics. No, I have no research from which I have drawn these concerns, I am simply employing the power of cognition we are all blessed with to learn from history as well as a healthy dose of 'when in doubt, don't.'

I, personally, certainly do NOT rely on so-called herd immunity, and I am not living in the false belief that my children are safe from life threatening diseases because everyone else vaccinates.

#121 beaglebaby

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:55 PM

What happened to Saba Button and others wasn't the fault of vaccination, it was the fault of Fluvax and an overzealous CSL and WA Health promotion of flu vaccination for small children.  Fluvax was not on the schedule, it was an option that many of us in WA were convinced we needed that year.  In my childs case he needed it because his father was undergoing chemotherapy.  My son was one of the children severely impacted by the vaccine, however the effects make it MORE important that he and those around him are vaccinated as he is now highly susceptible to convulsions.

If it wasn't for the fact that there is legal action pending I'm sure we would have heard more about the Fluvax debacle and why it occured and this information may just prevent the issue being hijacked by those with an anti-vaccination agenda.  

The argument here is always passionate and the reason I am passionately pro-vaccination is that the decision of others not to vaccinate has a huge potential impact on me.  What I don't understand is why anti-vaccination advocates are so passionate, my decision to vaccinate my child has absolutely no effect on them (apart from helping keep their child safe) or anyone they know at all?  I don't get it.

#122 F.E.B.E

Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:58 PM

Can I please clarify once again that there was NEVER a subforum, just a single thread which was rarely posted in.

#123 Sif

Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

QUOTE
Someone in another forum was asking about mass racism.
Well, take out the racisim and insert that word with any other mainstream EB ideal and it is VERY easy to see how such things are possible. Personal vendettas and attacks are too often used here and in my opinion it is the prolific and most well known posters who are generally the worst.


Too funny!

I made this very point and was informed by a moderator that my post had been edited for going off topic - unlike so many other EB threads posts that really do go off topic but are not edited, and co-incidentally don't mention not vaccinating...

It's hard not to be cynical.

#124 purplekitty

Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

QUOTE (beansidhe @ 24/01/2013, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shutting down something because a group of people had a tantrum over it is, in my opinion, pretty pathetic.
Is that what EB did or did they look at the difficulty of moderating a little used forum because when people actually came in there they were looking for medical advice.

If someone says they do not vaccinate because there are poisons and aborted foetuses in vaccines or vaccines cause childhood cancer they should not be given an audience of thousands of people on a parenting site without them having to justify themselves.
These are facts we are dealing with not subjective opinions.


#125 MuppetGirl

Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:02 PM

QUOTE (beansidhe @ 24/01/2013, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
and for an opinion that doesnt fit the EB "ethos" or conform to the lastest trend of the "pack"


Say what?

This is not an EB 'pack' issue. It is non-fiction vs fiction. Medically, scientifically, researched and proven evidence that vaccines eradicate diseases, make them less fatal, decrease child mortality rates and provide herd immunity to the unfortunate children that, for medical reasons, cannot have the vaccine vs myth, wild theories and lies.

If believing in science and proven researched evidence makes me part of a pack then so be it, that is where I would rather be.

It just makes me so sad that in a country where we provide these life saving vaccines for free so many people turn their backs on them yet in some countries they still have babies and children dying by the thousands from the very same diseases we can protect our children against.


Speaking of those other countries, was everyone in here aware that you can buy a vaccination pack through UNICEF to donate? A $34 polio donation provides 200 children with vaccines.

http://www.unicef.org.au/Charity-Gifts/polio-vaccine.aspx

A $27 measles donation provides 100 children with vaccines.

http://www.unicef.org.au/Charity-Gifts/measles-vaccine.aspx

We may not realise the true value of the vaccines here where we can take them for granted but those families would be forever grateful not to have to watch their children suffer these diseases.




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