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Decision re: Non Vaccinators Support Group


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#26 BetteBoop

Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So the vocal bullies win.  Boo.

It makes me really cross.  A group of bullies - yes that's what you call a pack with an agenda - hijacked a thread that was meant to be protected - a SUPPORT group - and Admin bows to the pressure.

One of those posters claimed she would use her 'influence' with the Mods to get the change.  So I guess that happened hey?

Choosing not to vaccinate is NOT illegal.   EB is meant to be for ALL parents, even those who don't vaccinate.  It's absolute bullsh*t and I'm not buying "incorrect medical information".  The thread was idle for months; until it was hijacked of course.  What about questions on formula, sleep, starting solids?  Lots of "incorrect medical" advise going on there.  

The stupidest part of all is at least here on EB, people had some chance of getting varied and unbiased information on vaccinations.  And now?  They'll be heading over to the very biased AVN.   Smart move.  Not.


Good point.

I plan to start up a sub forum for people who think circumcision is medically necessary for all male babies.

It's not illegal. EB has an obligation to provide a sub forum for every fringe group out there, as though it's an important enough issue that it needs a sub forum.

ETA: are you arguing just to be contrary?

Edited by Beetlebop, 24 January 2013 - 04:44 PM.


#27 BetteBoop

Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Go for it.


I'm planning on using my 'influence' with the Mods to get all CC/CIO threads shut down.


Last time I checked, using CIO techniques has not killed a single baby.

So your argument isn't a p*sstake? You genuinely think EB has an obligation to provide a special forum for every fringe group, even if their fundamental position presents a danger to the rest of society?

#28 Mille-Mille

Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

QUOTE
The thread was idle for months; until it was hijacked of course. What about questions on formula, sleep, starting solids? Lots of "incorrect medical" advise going on there.


In my opinion (for what it's worth) it is much more dangerous to spout off about the 'dangers' of vaccination than it is to suggest formula feeding your baby, use of controlled crying etc.

#29 FiveAus

Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not illegal.  It's a valid choice.  Parents deserve to receive all information, both sides of the argument.  Where do you suppose they will go now?  It's not up to me or you to decide what a parent does with their child, you can only give them the information and let them decide.  There was no information if that thread that was dangerous - it was a support group for members who decided not to vax for numerous different reasons.  It was very idle.  From memory, it was perhaps six months since someone posted.  No-one was spreading lies or misinformation or falsehoods.


They should go to their doctor. And if they and their doctor think the child is at risk of being harmed by immunisations, they need to speak to the treating specialist, or an immunologist. They should not be getting their information from a parenting forum, a Facebook group or Google.


#30 Acidulous Osprey

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:04 PM

psssssssst? Madame Catty?  You really seriously sincerely believe that admin will do what a random poster asks on an issue as important as this one?

I want some of what you are smoking.

#31 miinii

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:04 PM

Good move EB original.gif

#32 got my tinsel on

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So the vocal bullies win.  Boo.

It makes me really cross.  A group of bullies - yes that's what you call a pack with an agenda - hijacked a thread that was meant to be protected - a SUPPORT group - and Admin bows to the pressure.

One of those posters claimed she would use her 'influence' with the Mods to get the change.  So I guess that happened hey?

Choosing not to vaccinate is NOT illegal.   EB is meant to be for ALL parents, even those who don't vaccinate.  It's absolute bullsh*t and I'm not buying "incorrect medical information".  The thread was idle for months; until it was hijacked of course.  What about questions on formula, sleep, starting solids?  Lots of "incorrect medical" advise going on there.  

The stupidest part of all is at least here on EB, people had some chance of getting varied and unbiased information on vaccinations.  And now?  They'll be heading over to the very biased AVN.   Smart move.  Not.



QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not illegal.  It's a valid choice.  Parents deserve to receive all information, both sides of the argument.  Where do you suppose they will go now?  It's not up to me or you to decide what a parent does with their child, you can only give them the information and let them decide.  There was no information if that thread that was dangerous - it was a support group for members who decided not to vax for numerous different reasons.  It was very idle.  From memory, it was perhaps six months since someone posted.  No-one was spreading lies or misinformation or falsehoods.



Not that we needed any more reasons that the forum needed closing, but here it is anyway.




#33 Bart.

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

tthumbs.gif

#34 BetteBoop

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Me?  Never!

I was genuinely cross about when it happened and I see this decision as disappointing. They will deny it and give me a roasting, but it was like a pack of hyenas in the thread until the Mods had no choice but to remove it.  Members were threatening to leave, not stop until it was closed, use their 'influence',  blah blah.

I really dislike the condescending tone, the mocking, that goes on in vaccination threads.  People don't vax their kids for all sorts of reasons - some we might consider silly or dangerous - but I don't see how having a contemptuous manner towards them is going to help.  It's a legal, valid choice.


It might be legal, but when it's not based on contraindications, it's not a choice at all. It's an anti choice.

Ignoring the medical and scientific consensus about vaccinations is fine, if it only affects you. But it affects everyone else in the community, starting with a child who gets no say in their increased risk of death and permanent disability.

To me, the main issue was the unintended message behind providing a protected sub forum. It suggests the topic was so valid and special that it needed a forum dedicated just to talk about it.

Other legal parenting choices like elective circumcision don't get a sub forum so it's inappropriate to single out the anti vaxx choice.

#35 Feral*Spikey*

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:23 PM

Madame Protart (love the name change by the way),

In vaccination there are not "two sides" to the argument. There is one side, and that is the side that is backed by facts and science. Fiction is not a counter-argument to scientific fact. Ever.Well, unless you're Isaac Asimov.

The Mods have not banned people from asking questions about 'alternative' medicines, just banned a support group which was an anti-vax support group, much like our own version of the AVN.

Hopefully it will encourage newer members (sans history) to ask questions about what they're reading, and people can engage and provide appropriate links to genuine medical sites, like the Immunisation Handbook.

Sif,

No-one has ever claimed vaccinations are 100% safe, other than yourself when setting up strawman arguments to try and suggest that vaccinations are more dangerous than the diseases they try to prevent.  

Its difficult to take you seriously when you can't correctly articulate the facts against which you are purporting to argue.



#36 KnightsofNi

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

While I think that anti vaccers are bat sh*t crazy, I don't think that their support group should be closed down. They are entitled to their opinion and their 'interpretation' of the information out there. Obviously they should not be posting known bull crap. Perhaps a good compromise would be the support group be on a post approval system like the step parent forum was/is?

#37 Acidulous Osprey

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:35 PM

But post approval for a forum discussing junk science means the admin/mod has to read it and sift it for truthiness or what's the point of post approval.

The stepfamily forum was on PA for personal attacks, not truthiness.

#38 Soontobegran

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:39 PM


Brilliant decision admin original.gif






QUOTE (Sif @ 24/01/2013, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I trust then you will be advising EB NOT to state categorically

* that vaccinations are harmless and completely safe,

* that children who have had adverse reaction should STILL be vaccinated without question because it is a parents civil duty to vaccinate,

* that vaccinations provide immunity - when such a status cannot be verified without post-vaccination testing...

All these statements are ALSO incorrect/unsubstantiated medical information which is widely disseminated on Essential Baby.




Sif EB never has and I am sure never will claim vaccinations to be 100% safe and harmless and I think perhaps the fact that we have eliminated some of the most deadly childhhod diseases from our community may actually be the verification that immunity for most is the direct result of vaccinations.

I think you'll also find that the parents of children who actually have adverse reactions that go beyond a mild fever and a sore arm are not pressured by anyone to vaccinate.


QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's a legal, valid choice.


It may be legal at the moment but it's validity is certainly questionable and since every medical association in the world agree with this I just have to wonder what is the special information that anti vaxxers have that they don't?

If we are going to talk condescending tone and the mocking one needs to look no further than every anti vax support group I have looked at.

Edited by soontobegran, 24 January 2013 - 05:40 PM.


#39 ComradeBob

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:44 PM

Plus, with the best  will in the world, I doubt that any of the mods here know enough scientifically about vaccination to be able to mod it properly.

Quite frankly, some of the stuff that anti-vaxxers post IS certifiably batsh*t crazy. The fact that there are still people out there who give credence to the discredited notion that autism is caused by the MMR is a case in point.

#40 beaglebaby

Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:46 PM

We also have to remember that EB is a commercial entity not a community service.  They don't HAVE to give any group a forum of their own, they do have to answer to the preant company and shareholders and ensure they aren't going to be held liable for any damaging information people might find here.

#41 AliC05

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

Im very glad to see the result of this decision

#42 Feral*Spikey*

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You realize the federal court in the U.S.A has awarded compensation to some parents for this exact reason?  (ok not "exact" but sealing of documents doesn't look good, and there does appear to be a "link" between the MMR and ASD in these cases, that even the government conceded in one case http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/..._b_2468343.html



M Protart, that isn't exactly what the Fed Court said. It compensated the children in question for known vaccine-related injury. Whether that injury has a causal connection to autism was not determined as there was no concrete medical evidence, nor was it necessary to determine that in working out the compensation.

In other words, they said they couldn't be sure the injury led to autism.

#43 FuzzyMum

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

QUOTE
QUOTE (Madame Protart @ 24/01/2013, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You realize the federal court in the U.S.A has awarded compensation to some parents for this exact reason?  (ok not "exact" but sealing of documents doesn't look good, and there does appear to be a "link" between the MMR and ASD in these cases, that even the government conceded in one case http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/..._b_2468343.html




Yeah, keep pulling that one out. Keep scaring the parents of new babies with the fear of autism to the point where they will risk a fatal disease in case their child develops asd. You know because death is better. While you're at it, keep on making our kids with the condition the subject of fear and pity.

#44 F.E.B.E

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:17 PM

I will reply more fully later, but please be assured that we were not approached by any member using any alleged 'influence' to make this happen.

#45 ComradeBob

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

Plus, my understanding is that while the MMR may be a trigger in people predisposed to autism, this has not been proven yet, and is a long way away from Andrew Wakefield's simplistic and untested theory that MMR causes autism  rolleyes.gif

#46 Stellajoy

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

QUOTE
You realize the federal court in the U.S.A has awarded compensation to some parents for this exact reason? (ok not "exact" but sealing of documents doesn't look good, and there does appear to be a "link" between the MMR and ASD in these cases, that even the government conceded in one case http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/..._b_2468343.html


omg, you posting that link and declaring it evidence there is a link between MMR and ASD is exactly why that forum group should have been shut down.

#47 TheWanderer

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE (beaglebaby @ 24/01/2013, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We also have to remember that EB is a commercial entity not a community service.  They don't HAVE to give any group a forum of their own, they do have to answer to the preant company and shareholders and ensure they aren't going to be held liable for any damaging information people might find here.


That and defending themselves when competitive media agencies cotton to the fact that Fairfax was profiting from supporting people who are endangering their kids and the the community.

#48 FeralFemboside

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:40 PM

QUOTE (Balzac @ 24/01/2013, 05:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But post approval for a forum discussing junk science means the admin/mod has to read it and sift it for truthiness or what's the point of post approval.

The stepfamily forum was on PA for personal attacks, not truthiness.


"Truthiness" is the perfect word for this subject!


Every time I think of the money spent on repeatedly investigating, then disproving, the link between vaccination and autism I imagine what it could have done being spent on support services for people on the spectrum. Then I get depressed...


I'm very glad EB has made this decision.

Edited by Sydneyside, 24 January 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#49 purplekitty

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:44 PM

QUOTE (Freakypet @ 24/01/2013, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yeap, basically sad.gif

I see TONS of 'incorrect'  information being spewed all over here all the time and it never gets moderated. But as soon as it goes against the status quo.........  mad.gif

sad.gif
Dispute that "incorrect" information then if that's what you think. You can if it's not in a protected forum.

QUOTE
You realize the federal court in the U.S.A has awarded compensation to some parents for this exact reason? (ok not "exact" but sealing of documents doesn't look good, and there does appear to be a "link" between the MMR and ASD in these cases, that even the government conceded in one case http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/..._b_2468343.html
David Kirby and Huffpo,a dangerous combination.
If you do your research you will see other interpretations from both legal and medical experts and you need to understand how the Vaccine Court in the US works.
Don't just read one article by someone with a well known agenda.


#50 highvoltage

Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

Well done EB.




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