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Should NAPLAN test content that hasn't been taught yet?


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#251 seayork2002

Posted 02 May 2017 - 10:52 AM

One thing (going by a feeling I have in meetings at my sons school) is it is not the kids or the teachers that are stressed about NAPLAN as much as the parents (in our school that is)

#252 Burro

Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:02 AM

View Post*Spikey*, on 01 May 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

Expelli, I hate to break it to you.... but I have been an academic, with proper academic research and stuff during my last couple of Masters Degrees. I know. Just colour me nerd, and be done with it.

And no, Grumpy. That isn't the way we respond to you - we start off engaging on the subject and hoping that this time you're going to listen and take on board the exciting stuff we work with every day, and the research we (as in us, the EB people) have done, and so on. And then eventually, we give up when we realise that your only response to our contributions is to declare them insufficient, demand evidence for this (even when it has already been provided) and declare the evidence wrong, because a blogger said so. I'm not a fan of the divert and silence tactic you've taken to using, so I'm providing you feedback, so at least you are aware that you are doing it, if you weren't already.

The reason I have suggested that you formally study, is that you appear to struggle with this discipline as you have large gaps in your understanding. Which is fine, BTW. You don't have to be an expert. But it is hard to have a professional level conversation when you don't have the same background as the person you are talking with.

But seeing as how you seem to be invested in knowing about education, I think you need a proper source of instruction on it, and EB is not the place to get it.

You've asked for details about why we disagree - but this is a forum, it isn't a classroom.

It is not possible to condense 4+ years of study into a single post, and you've already made it clear that you aren't prepared to accept our professional expertise on face value (with or without evidence), so why should we even try? It's not like there is any satisfaction for us to be gained from martyring ourselves on the cross of your nonacceptance.

If you feel you are being hard done by, by the mods in this forum, report the posts and the thread. You shouldn't be doing that via posts in the thread.

FTR, I haven't attempted to refute any of your points, so why would I give you evidence to support stuff I haven't said.

And yes, Expelli is a good egg.

So what. Are you jealous that her professional expertise is acknowledged by her peers on EB and elsewhere?

Lastly, you do realise that I was teasing Expelli for being such a teacher when she knew what you were doing, right? That level of commitment is frankly awesome, inspiring and a bit frightening.

This post is smug, rude, sanctimonious, condescending and baiting.

All the kowtowing, fawning circle jerking on this thread has me gagging and eye rolling. I can barely read it. In fact I'm not going to read the whole thing.

I can't believe that more posters (and mods) aren't perturbed by the baiting and nastiness shown to grumpy?  

Which is a shame, because I am interested to listen to grumpys arguments. And while I see some of these concerns and issues  debated in the media and in the UK, it's not the kind of conversation thats easy to have at my work place. I know that some of the parents at the school I work at have concerns about pedagogy. What a shame that their concerns would be ignored and shut down here also.

It's ridiculous to suggest this debate isn't welcome or facilitated on a parenting forum or that parents are getting above themselves by reading and critiquing.

The argument that grumpy couldn't be informed and make a valid counter argument because she's not a 'professional' is Amusingly antiquated and ' 20th C' and the antithesis of life long learning and critical thinking - which we supposedly foster between the hours of 9-3.

#253 Mmmcheese

Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:27 AM

The smug and rude usually comes after grumpy has been smug and rude. Her arguments are exactly the same in every. Single. Thead. It doesn't advance or evolve anywhere. She turns any thread about education to her pet topics and then dominates the conversation without any reflection or real engagement with the info presented. Hence the frustration. Many of the members are able to engage in civilised conversations all across the board, but as soon as grumpy enters the thread... it ends up the same.  Eye roll right back at ya.

#254 Expelliarmus

Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:32 AM

Of course the debate is welcome on a parenting forum but it's not a purely academic argument. And I'm not sure how it's been interpreted that parents are 'getting above themselves' by reading and critiquing.

Most of us are not reading and critiquing at a level demanded by some posters. It makes the debate inaccessible to many and confusing as well. It's worthwhile looking at various ways to explain, extrapolate and present arguments and critiques.

I have no problem with people who are not 'professionals' being informed etc. that's not  the argument being made. But it is unlikely that someone who is not working as a teacher in schools will be able to extrapolate the whole picture. It's possible teachers in schools have access to things someone who isn't in schools don't. And this information is worth more Han being dismissed out of hand because it isn't in a peer reviewed paper.

Not everyone agrees with me but most people engage me in that respectfully just as when I challenge I always do so with courtesy. Admitting of course here that Grumpy and I are past that point.

#255 Burro

Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:37 AM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 02 May 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Of course the debate is welcome on a parenting forum but it's not a purely academic argument. And I'm not sure how it's been interpreted that parents are 'getting above themselves' by reading and critiquing.

Most of us are not reading and critiquing at a level demanded by some posters. It makes the debate inaccessible to many and confusing as well. It's worthwhile looking at various ways to explain, extrapolate and present arguments and critiques.

I have no problem with people who are not 'professionals' being informed etc. that's not  the argument being made. But it is unlikely that someone who is not working as a teacher in schools will be able to extrapolate the whole picture. It's possible teachers in schools have access to things someone who isn't in schools don't. And this information is worth more Han being dismissed out of hand because it isn't in a peer reviewed paper.

Not everyone agrees with me but most people engage me in that respectfully just as when I challenge I always do so with courtesy. Admitting of course here that Grumpy and I are past that point.

That's good to hear.

I haven't read the whole thread, Just dipped in at the end.

I was referring to posters questioning grumpys qualification to debate pedagogy. It's a tactic that's used frequently against grumpy. I think it's a poor argument and not a standard that other posters are held to.

#256 AsperHacker

Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:42 AM

View PostBurro, on 02 May 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:



That's good to hear.

I haven't read the whole thread, Just dipped in at the end.

I was referring to posters questioning grumpys qualification to debate pedagogy. It's a tactic that's used frequently against grumpy. I think it's a poor argument and not a standard that other posters are held to.

Read the beginning of every thread involving grumpy. They're quite good to start with. And you need that context to understand why the threads go south.

The only reason qualification is brought up is because of the Grumpys misunderstandings that she holds rigidly to. Reading a study that clearly indicates one thing and deducting the opposite. It's tough to argue with that.

#257 Burro

Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:05 PM

View PostAsperHacker, on 02 May 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:



Read the beginning of every thread involving grumpy. They're quite good to start with. And you need that context to understand why the threads go south.

The only reason qualification is brought up is because of the Grumpys misunderstandings that she holds rigidly to. Reading a study that clearly indicates one thing and deducting the opposite. It's tough to argue with that.

I've read enough threads to see that grumpy doesn't get a fair go.

#258 AsperHacker

Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:35 PM

View PostBurro, on 02 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:



I've read enough threads to see that grumpy doesn't get a fair go.

What would you like to see? Her arguments aren't any good. Why should she be given a fair go in an education debate when she refuses to/can't understand what she's debating? Do you think she does? Do you think she understands the studies she cites? And the industry specific language she uses? There are posts all over EB with respectful, helpful information that it seems Grumpy argues against for fun. How do you engage with someone who doesn't understand what you're saying? Should she just be ignored?

#259 liveworkplay

Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:40 PM

I agree, it's very hard to have a discussion with someone who won't or can't understand what you are saying.

Edited by liveworkplay, 02 May 2017 - 12:41 PM.


#260 unicycle

Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:52 PM

.

Edited by unicycle, 02 May 2017 - 01:19 PM.


#261 JJ

Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:50 PM

View PostBurro, on 02 May 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

I was referring to posters questioning grumpys qualification to debate pedagogy. It's a tactic that's used frequently against grumpy. I think it's a poor argument and not a standard that other posters are held to.

I think it's due to the level of criticism aimed at the education system, educational theories and the teaching profession in some of these threads. It's been ongoing, sweeping and uncompromising and I'm not surprised it puts people on the defensive.

I would expect the same to happen if anyone was that consistently and vocally critical of, say, doctors and some of the things they do (in some detail, as often happens here in these education threads - i.e. "this is how you should teach maths, you're doing it wrong" would be akin to something like "this is how you should remove an appendix, you're doing it wrong"), and have seen people get told to go to med school over such comments when it was clear that they didn't understand how the human body works (I've been told that in the past actually, and rightly so). I've also seen people told to not give unqualified legal advice or make armchair diagnoses, for example. So I do think it is a standard that is applied in other areas of EB too.

I actually share a couple of Grumpy's concerns, which is why I homeschooled one of my kids for a few years and why I follow these threads, but I don't feel qualified to come in here and start pointing out everything that is wrong with the education system - I just don't have that knowledge, I only have my own anecdotes. The professionals here usually present the most convincing arguments and they do it well, and that's not fawning, I really admire the patience and dedication that goes into some of these posts. They are then often rudely dismissed as "faddish", outdated or similar. The insults really do go both ways, it's just that there are more people on one side of the argument and the lone person on the other side looks like they're being unfairly targeted, but IMO that person gives as good as she gets...

I enjoy reading these discussions and I have to admit, as a lowly 1st year undergrad student I'm learning a lot from them - mainly about the pitfalls of cognitive biases and logic fails, how to best present an argument (and how not to go about it) and the importance of epistemic humility.

Edited by JJ, 02 May 2017 - 01:54 PM.


#262 *Spikey*

Posted 02 May 2017 - 06:28 PM

I don't think Grumpy is unfairly targeted.

The bottom line is, she chooses to present her position the way she does, she chooses the tactics she does and tries to silence or divert attention from her own lack of evidence.

I do, still, wish that she would actually take on board some of the expertise and research that have been shared with her. Lord knows, the more people who actually knew what they are doing, the better. I'm not being patronising. I'm suggesting a way she can get serious skin into the education ball game.

I think it's extraordinary that you find that we are patronising, after we have been dissed by labels such as "progressives", used in a way to be clearly intended derogatory and have simply responded by pointing out ways she can usefully build her subject knowledge up.

Patronising would be to tell her, there there little woman, don't you worry your little head about the education stuff, we will take care of it. No one has said she should not engage. Ever.

So, did you have anything useful to add other than scolding people for no particularly good reason?

Edited by *Spikey*, 02 May 2017 - 06:29 PM.


#263 FeralZombieMum

Posted 03 May 2017 - 10:31 AM

The following stands out to me, and irks me somewhat, but I also find it somewhat amusing that someone would think this is how it is/should be.

View PostGrumpy1, on 28 April 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

...however it seems to me that it is a physical impossibility to teach to 30 kids  varying in ability, according to that ability ie catering for each individual child.

View PostGrumpy1, on 28 April 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

E D Hirsch has made a good point as to why differentiation may be detrimental. He says, as do others, that it means that if the teacher is concentrating on each individual child they are wasting precious whole class instruction time. So rather than all the children getting a 60 min lesson it is divided up into very small increments of 10 mins each.

View PostGrumpy1, on 28 April 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

Sorry maths. In a class of 30 with a 60 min lesson each individual child would get 2 mins spent of them.

View PostGrumpy1, on 28 April 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Differentiation is code for progressive teaching. Of course we know that most class rooms don't use "differentiation in the traditional sense ie devoting 2 mins to each student. It also doesn't make sense to expect a teacher to be able to cater to each child every day.

I think I can see where some of your problems are. You are too focused in believing that if a teacher has a class of 30 students, they are spending 2 minutes on each individual student.  That's such an odd belief, in my unprofessional and uneducated opinion. I would hate to send my 4 kids to a school that does this. It's not the sort of educational environment I want for them.

I think this is where, if you actually went and:
1) Studied to be a teacher
and
2) Had actual experience of teaching a class,

You might be able to change your perception over what is actually happening in classrooms.

Thinking back to my school experience - teachers will spend the start of that lesson teaching concepts, or giving instructions, but then allows the class to spend the rest of that time doing the actual work, and the teacher will assist students who need that assistance on that particular activity.  Was I educated wrong? Should my teachers have used a timer, and allocated their time evenly across the students?

#264 FeralZombieMum

Posted 03 May 2017 - 10:53 AM

Getting back to the original question:

View PostMoonl!ght, on 24 April 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

Found this article very interesting:
What do people think of using NAPLAN to test students for content that hasn't yet been taught? And would it be appropriate to do the same in earlier NAPLAN years, to allow students with high level problem solving skills to shine?

I am all for it.

Content doesn't have to be taught - kids can pick up on information, and kids can use their skills to work out new things, before they've been explicitly taught it.

It can allow for schools and parents to have a better picture of where our kids are at.

If the top bar is set too low, it means many kids would be getting results in the top triangle - is that really telling us enough information about these kids?

Also - Naplan isn't the only testing/ assessments that students are exposed to. My kids have done PAT tests - and my kids have been given tests above their year level - which is more informative than just giving them their standard year level test.

#265 Burro

Posted 03 May 2017 - 10:58 AM

View PostFeralZombieMum, on 03 May 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

The following stands out to me, and irks me somewhat, but I also find it somewhat amusing that someone would think this is how it is/should be.









I think I can see where some of your problems are. You are too focused in believing that if a teacher has a class of 30 students, they are spending 2 minutes on each individual student.  That's such an odd belief, in my unprofessional and uneducated opinion. I would hate to send my 4 kids to a school that does this. It's not the sort of educational environment I want for them.

I think this is where, if you actually went and:
1) Studied to be a teacher
and
2) Had actual experience of teaching a class,

You might be able to change your perception over what is actually happening in classrooms.

Thinking back to my school experience - teachers will spend the start of that lesson teaching concepts, or giving instructions, but then allows the class to spend the rest of that time doing the actual work, and the teacher will assist students who need that assistance on that particular activity.  Was I educated wrong? Should my teachers have used a timer, and allocated their time evenly across the students?

You've missed her point, even though you quoted the part where she said that differentiation doesn't actually mean 2 mins per child.

I think grumpys point was something to do with differentiating or personalising learning for each individual in a class is not feasible.

How much is enough differentiation? I think teachers usually manage what's realistic and aim for what's fair but don't always or often deliver what's ideal.

#266 Expelliarmus

Posted 03 May 2017 - 11:27 AM

View PostBurro, on 03 May 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:



You've missed her point, even though you quoted the part where she said that differentiation doesn't actually mean 2 mins per child.

I think grumpys point was something to do with differentiating or personalising learning for each individual in a class is not feasible.

How much is enough differentiation? I think teachers usually manage what's realistic and aim for what's fair but don't always or often deliver what's ideal.
But does that mean we abandoned differentiation?

Or should we make adjustments to the education system to deliver differentiation in a more ideal way?

The points made by FZM above re: 'what we test them on' is one of the things that allows for more ideal differentiation because we know more about each child.

#267 FeralZombieMum

Posted 03 May 2017 - 12:41 PM

View PostBurro, on 03 May 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

I think grumpys point was something to do with differentiating or personalising learning for each individual in a class is not feasible.

And she bases this on what?

I don't think she really knows what she's talking about. Especially as her experience is limited - ie she has a couple of kids still in primary school? So her own children's experience is fairly limited? They've not been exposed to that many teachers?

Is she actually spending any time inside her children's classroom? Or is she just going off what she reads from a limited number of teachers she's found online?

View PostBurro, on 03 May 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

How much is enough differentiation? I think teachers usually manage what's realistic and aim for what's fair but don't always or often deliver what's ideal.

I agree - but most teachers are at least attempting to do this, are they not? (okay I know some aren't - based on our own experience, but the majority of teacher's we've come across, are fairly good at doing this. Except for our first child in primary school - I blame that on the previous leadership team. We did have 3 great teachers though.)

eg with my oldest - she was in Advanced maths in Year 8 and Year 9 (wasn't offered for Year 7 students) and her Year 9 maths teacher was constantly looking for ways to personalise her learning.  He even suggested we have her IQ tested so he could cater for her more (she'd had it done at 6 years of age). He also offered her (and other students) Year 10 work as it was obvious they were getting bored with what was being offered.

With my next 2 kids - school changed their approach, and no longer offer separate advanced math classes (but my Year 8 DD thinks they have streamed kids into classes according to ability)  - kids work at their own pace with a program that tries to cater for their individual strengths and weaknesses.

This has been great - because my kids are engaged and are challenged, but has also meant my kids (and others) jumped ahead - so now my child that is now in Year 10 - the math subject she is in, is just going over stuff she already knows, but it's new to most students in her class. She couldn't do a Year 11 maths (like most students in advanced maths did) - because she's already doing two Year 11 subjects - but her teacher is giving her different work to do, to challenge her. (In year 9, she and some other students also sat a Year 10 math exam even though some topics hadn't been covered.)

With my next child - she too is jumping ahead with her maths. Not sure what's going to happen in Year 9 if she's already covered the work in Year 8, I guess we'll find out next year.

In primary school - kids often worked in groups. They have/had separate ones for math, english etc. - so primary school is at least attempting to cater and teach based on individual needs.

I've only covered math subject. English is similar - teachers have given my kids more challenging work at times. My primary school child was recently telling me that were learning how to use Scratch. It was pretty obvious to my child's teacher that they already knew what was being taught - so the teacher gave my child more challenging work.

Getting back to the original question - my kids have done other assessments at school. School doesn't always give all the kids the same assessment.

I mentioned the PAT test - last year, my DD in Year 7 said she had to do a Year 9 PAT test, whereas one of her friends did a year 5 one (they have learning issues), and most were doing either 6 or 7. Even in primary school, my kids picked up that they were doing different PAT tests to their friends.

Even when I was in primary school - I realised I was doing different assessments than the rest of the class, and that was a long time ago. ;)

#268 Burro

Posted 03 May 2017 - 12:49 PM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 03 May 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:


But does that mean we abandoned differentiation?

Or should we make adjustments to the education system to deliver differentiation in a more ideal way?

The points made by FZM above re: 'what we test them on' is one of the things that allows for more ideal differentiation because we know more about each child.

I'm highly skeptical that my classroom would function without some differentiation. I also don't think it would be fair.

Nevertheless I'm curious about 'asian' classrooms that don't use it. I couldn't even imagine, it's so far removed from what I've seen and how I've been trained. I had a quick look at an article posted by moonlight about 'mastery methods' being adopted in the UK for primary maths. Looks interesting.  

I don't agree with grumpy on everything, I like a bit of IBL and differentiation. I think it makes sense to include naplan qs above the expected level. But I've never felt attacked or insulted by her critiquing. I certainly don't care enough to respond with CAPS LOCK or  sarcasim.

I teach at a very 'progressive' HS. I don't think the evidence is compelling for some of our initiatives. And I do hear colleagues responding to concerns with buzzwords and soundbites. So grumpy has raised some interesting points for me. these aren't conversations I have easily at work. I don't think her evidence is conclusive but neither is the research used to justify some of the expensive or drastic initiatives at my workplace.

I also think there are interesting parallels with child centred trends in education and parenting approaches which in turn are probably a reflection of the influence post modernism. I wonder how things like '21st C learning and inquiry based learning' link in with post truth and fake news.

I probably sit in the middle of the spectrum with the bulk of teachers disagreeinf with G, but because i work somewhere at the opposite end of the spectrum to grumpy I find her arguments facinating and quite novel.

But most of time I just find the insults and aggression directed at grumpy distracting and unnecessary. I want to read the debate not just see people telling her she's a bad speller or unqualified or naughty.

yes she's obviously influenced by some big personalities and slightly myopic, but that's not against the rules. Lots of posters here have quirks and areas of interest. Education seems to be one of the more worthwhile subjects to obsess about.

I hope she doesn't stop posting. I would hate to see someone pushed out for something as ridiculous as debating pedagogy and it would be really dumb if EB can't cope with a pretty common global debate in ed.

Edit to add: a lot of this wasn't really directed at you. Just that it's my only post as I have stuff to do, so just putting it all out there.

Edited by Burro, 03 May 2017 - 12:52 PM.


#269 *Spikey*

Posted 03 May 2017 - 01:11 PM

All of my classes have at least two streams of students in them. So differentiation is pretty much bread and butter stuff for me.

One of the observations that I have, is that some of my students have acquired the skills they need to achieve subject specific literacy (and high marks as a consequence), via other subjects and they've demonstrated an ability to transfer those skills in a general manner, to a new set of content. But the majority of my students have benefited from an explicit teaching of those skills. Some, describe it as beneficial because it clarifies and structures "stuff they already kind of know", and for some, it was completely new information, and a whole new skill set to develop.

Although they're too senior to do NAPLAN, i would imagine that my students who got there on their own, would be the ones performing at the top bands on the NAPLAN tests, the rest are probably in the middle somewhere.

For me, it makes sense to benchmark top performance. One of the contributions that I might make to junior high, is around explicit teaching of subject specific literacy, before they hit the great ATAR chase. I'd far prefer all of my students to be comfortable in applying those skills before they get to me, so there is no interference over blockers to their performance. And yes, my subjects have a lot of content knowledge, but the big marks are given for what they can do with it (analysis and reasoning). It's almost like being in pre-uni.

So that's a long winded yes, they should, from me. Anything that identifies curriculum issues, or leads to investigation of potential issues or improvements is a good thing. That being said, I don't love NAPLAN itself.

#270 Moonl!ght

Posted 03 May 2017 - 01:38 PM

I think it's a little bit of a myth that Asia countries don't use differentiation.  They certainly differentiate with "gifted programs" that in turn drive the multimillion dollar tuition industry in places like South Korea, Hong Kong, China and Singapore.  Just like Australia's gifted and selective school programs create demand for coaching colleges and private tuition here.  Well at least around where I live!

Anecdotally, I know that high schools in China test student every two weeks and openly rank students from top to bottom.  They have programs in place to help the top students, but I'm not sure what help the bottom students get.

Agree with Burro regarding Grumpy.  She hasn't done anything against the rules yet some posters have openly cajoled and baited her and appear to have taken her differing viewpoint as a personal attack.

This forum is a safe place if you largely agree with everyone else, otherwise you need tough skin and a lot of conviction to stick around.  I think Grumpy's conviction is what has kept her on the board for so long whilst others who may feel the same as her have moved on.

Sadly I think she has decided to leave the board.  The "one voice" can reign in peace once more.

#271 JinksNewton

Posted 03 May 2017 - 01:51 PM

To be honest, i could have lived with Burro's views on education (despite the fact that i felt she was blaming the system for problems that were closer to home) but where quite a few of us jumped ship was at the point where she said she was only talking about "normal" children in the classroom and that children with additional/different needs would benefit from being educated elsewhere.
You can take that ableist sh*t and get stuffed, honestly.

Edited by JinksNewton, 03 May 2017 - 01:59 PM.


#272 Guest_Grumpy1_*

Posted 03 May 2017 - 02:56 PM

Please stop spreading untruths about me. PP - could you please link to where I said anything of the sort?

I think I said something along the lines of ""...I wasn't discussing kids with special needs I was talking about your average kid in the class room."" You are putting an unfair spin on it

If anyone else wants to make comments like this then at the very least supply a link so we can tell if it's a lie or not. It's pretty unfair to start making accusations of this sort when I wont be around to defend myself.

#273 Kallie88

Posted 03 May 2017 - 03:02 PM

View Post*Spikey*, on 03 May 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

All of my classes have at least two streams of students in them. So differentiation is pretty much bread and butter stuff for me.

One of the observations that I have, is that some of my students have acquired the skills they need to achieve subject specific literacy (and high marks as a consequence), via other subjects and they've demonstrated an ability to transfer those skills in a general manner, to a new set of content. But the majority of my students have benefited from an explicit teaching of those skills. Some, describe it as beneficial because it clarifies and structures "stuff they already kind of know", and for some, it was completely new information, and a whole new skill set to develop.

Although they're too senior to do NAPLAN, i would imagine that my students who got there on their own, would be the ones performing at the top bands on the NAPLAN tests, the rest are probably in the middle somewhere.

For me, it makes sense to benchmark top performance. One of the contributions that I might make to junior high, is around explicit teaching of subject specific literacy, before they hit the great ATAR chase. I'd far prefer all of my students to be comfortable in applying those skills before they get to me, so there is no interference over blockers to their performance. And yes, my subjects have a lot of content knowledge, but the big marks are given for what they can do with it (analysis and reasoning). It's almost like being in pre-uni.

So that's a long winded yes, they should, from me. Anything that identifies curriculum issues, or leads to investigation of potential issues or improvements is a good thing. That being said, I don't love NAPLAN itself.

I find this a bit with my tutoring - i get a mix of students seeking help and those trying to excel - but often it's the explicit literacy that i need to go over regardless. I've had so many students that when going through essays have heard of teel or been told to use it, but don't actually know what it looks like, how to actually write it out. So i go right back and break it down and the improvement is often very quick. Talking about text types and using language in different ways for different texts is also often eye-opening for students. And I'm sure their teachers do it too - this is definitely not a dig - I'm just lucky to have the luxury of one-on-one (my favorite thing about tutoring) and less time pressure to make sure my students really get it.

#274 Burro

Posted 03 May 2017 - 03:07 PM

View PostJinksNewton, on 03 May 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

To be honest, i could have lived with Burro's views on education (despite the fact that i felt she was blaming the system for problems that were closer to home) but where quite a few of us jumped ship was at the point where she said she was only talking about "normal" children in the classroom and that children with additional/different needs would benefit from being educated elsewhere.
You can take that ableist sh*t and get stuffed, honestly.

Do you mean me? Are you talking about this thread or bringing up old stuff? Could you quote or link please?

#275 Expelliarmus

Posted 03 May 2017 - 05:08 PM

View PostGrumpy1, on 03 May 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

Please stop spreading untruths about me. PP - could you please link to where I said anything of the sort?

I think I said something along the lines of ""...I wasn't discussing kids with special needs I was talking about your average kid in the class room."" You are putting an unfair spin on it

If anyone else wants to make comments like this then at the very least supply a link so we can tell if it's a lie or not. It's pretty unfair to start making accusations of this sort when I wont be around to defend myself.
I suspect that PP is referring to the fact that claims of an 'average class' are spurious. If the claim is made "I'm just talking about the average classroom" then the basic fact is that in Australia this does not exist.

In Asia it exists to a larger extent which is why they teach whole class and don't differentiate - they don't need to. My Singaporean colleague explained it - students are streamed not into classes but into schools. Students with special needs exist only in special schools. There are multiple levels of schools so all the students in a school can be taught as a homogenous group because they are a homogenous group. All are being tutored. All are working at the same level.

In Australia a typical classroom has students with special needs, students with trauma backgrounds, students with behaviourbproblems and students with a language other than English.

2 years ago my class of 17 students had 5 ESL students, 4 students identified with a disability (3 different sorts), 4 with special needs not identified with a disability, 1 with a behaviour disorder and 2 with social difficulties.

Last year my 23 students were 15 ESL, 4 with a disability (3 different sorts), 2 severe behaviours and one social difficulty. That's all of them so I had no 'average' students. They all required accomodations. ALL of them.

This year I have 24 students. Unusually I only have one student with a disability. But only 6 are not ESL. Of those one is in government care, 2 are aboriginal, 1 is dyslexic and one is working 2 years behind for as yet unexplained reasons. One of the ESL kids is traumatised. I have one average one this year.

So referring to the average class is very othering. It is something the parent of a special needs child (whether that's a disability, learning difference, behavioural disorder or simply quirks) doesn't have the liberty of having.

Nor do teachers.

We don't have the luxury of working in an average classroom. The 'average classroom' needs differentiation. Starting a conversation (or continuing it) by proclaiming the need to ditch differentiation and labelling it "Progressive" is counter productive and fruitless.




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