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Lap belt only? H Harness safety?


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#26 CallMeFeral

Posted 05 July 2018 - 10:20 AM

View PostHolierThanCow, on 05 July 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

You could look at a Type G seat for your 7 year old, but I'm not sure how hight the height markers are. I suspect 133cm would be pushing it even though many say they have their kids in them until age 9-10.

I was thinking this. Maybe see how high you can go with the Type G seats, maybe it would buy a few years?

#27 just roses

Posted 05 July 2018 - 10:57 AM

View PostChief Pancake Make, on 05 July 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

According to the NSW guidelines a type C2 harness should be used for children age 7-10 with lap only seatbelts.

NSW regulations state children 4-7 must be in a approved forward facing restraint or booster seat. Dickie seats must have a lap sash, or lap belt in combination with a harness.
No one is disagreeing with this. All have said - including my first post - that a h harness is preferable to lap only belt. However it should not be used with a booster if you have a lap sash belt. In that case you should just used the booster with the lap sash (you can still use the anti-sub clip).

#28 Cheesy Sanga

Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:24 AM

The type G harnessed seats (maxi guard, etc) have an exit height of 51cm torso height. My 136cm 30kg 9yo is still in a maxi guard. But it's on torso height not overall height, so some kids outgrow the seat faster, some kids will get longer in the seat.

#29 Hands Up

Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:25 AM

View PostMilly Molly Mandy, on 05 July 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

Is the mentality behind swapping the adult and teenager because of size/weight or because the adult is more expendable?

Genuine question because a lot of 15 year olds are bigger than their mothers. My 14 year old is the same size as me but some of his friends......they are giants, one is taller than my 6 3 husband!

I’d rather put myself at risk than my kid.

#30 Avocado tree

Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:43 AM

Sorry , hopefully not derailing the thread but I am concerned and confused.  We have our DS in a booster seat using the sash belt.  Should we be using the anti submarine clip on his belt , or is that only if the seat belt is anchoring the booster and h harness is being used.  I can’t believe I have never heard of this clip.

#31 just roses

Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:46 AM

View PostAvocado tree, on 05 July 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Sorry , hopefully not derailing the thread but I am concerned and confused.  We have our DS in a booster seat using the sash belt.  Should we be using the anti submarine clip on his belt , or is that only if the seat belt is anchoring the booster and h harness is being used.  I can’t believe I have never heard of this clip.
Some seats have an anti-sub design. Our Infa booster does; the lap sash belt threads under the armrests. Our SnS booster doesn’t have this so has the clip. If you have a lap sash belt you don’t only not need a H-harness, it’s less safe to use one.

ETA: If your seat has a clip then you can attach it to the seatbelt (it comes up between his legs and hoops onto the lap part of the seatbelt)

Edited by just roses, 05 July 2018 - 11:47 AM.


#32 Cheesy Sanga

Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:09 PM

View PostAvocado tree, on 05 July 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Sorry , hopefully not derailing the thread but I am concerned and confused.  We have our DS in a booster seat using the sash belt.  Should we be using the anti submarine clip on his belt , or is that only if the seat belt is anchoring the booster and h harness is being used.  I can’t believe I have never heard of this clip.

What seat do you have? The antisubmarine clip is a Britax design, so safe n sound, hipod, baby love seats will have it. Other brands use the design of the seat base and arm rests to provide the antisubmarine functionality.

#33 HolierThanCow

Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:10 PM

View PostMilly Molly Mandy, on 05 July 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

Is the mentality behind swapping the adult and teenager because of size/weight or because the adult is more expendable?

Genuine question because a lot of 15 year olds are bigger than their mothers. My 14 year old is the same size as me but some of his friends......they are giants, one is taller than my 6 3 husband!

Neither - although I guess an adult is in charge of their own safety and can refuse to sit in a seat if they don't want to whereas teenagers still (technically) are not and *have to* sit where their parents tell them.

Safety-wise there's probably no difference and I'm not even sure of the relative safety of back seat middle with lap only vs front seat passenger with lap sash.

I was more thinking there may be limited occasions where the middle seat would need to be used at all and the OP could sit with the lap only or another adult could if she was uncomfortable driving with one of the kids in it.

View PostCheesy Sanga, on 05 July 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

The type G harnessed seats (maxi guard, etc) have an exit height of 51cm torso height. My 136cm 30kg 9yo is still in a maxi guard. But it's on torso height not overall height, so some kids outgrow the seat faster, some kids will get longer in the seat.

In that case I'd look for the tallest Type G seat on the market and see how close the 7 year old is to the exit markers. Or use an H harness with a booster seat. The problem wit H harnesses is they're usually not used correctly, so I don't know...

Or sell the car.

#34 Cheesy Sanga

Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:11 PM

OP, just checking, do you have an anchor point for the middle seat?

#35 born.a.girl

Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:30 PM

My comment about the past, and the future is not suggesting 'it was o.k. for us'.  I wouldn't travel with a baby in a velcro wrap like I did for mine, either.

It's in regard to laws changing for new vehicles, based on best available evidence, but you still have vast numbers of the population who are driving older vehicles and can only do the best with what they've got.


It's a sad fact that the more you can afford, the safer you are.

#36 Quirk

Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:56 PM

Thanks so much everyone for your thoughts and ideas.
Yes, there is an anchor point in the middle at the back. As it seems there is no way to make a h harness as safe as a lap sash belt, then it looks like we need to consider selling the car or paying $7,000 to have a lap sash installed.

We have tried contacted other companies to see if it could be done cheaper but haven't heard back from anyone yet. I suppose if I factor in what we might lose by selling and rebuying, plus registration and transfer costs, it might end up being cheaper to get one installed.

Besides the seatbelt issue, the car is a great car and has everything else on it that my husband wants for offroad and camping trips.

I know some people use H Harnesses because they may have no other choice. In our case, I am lucky that I do have a choice. The main reason I was asking this was to see if anything had changed over the years, as I remember talk of h harnesses from years ago.

So for us, that means no child in a H harness and no child in a lap only belt. I am lucky we have a second car, so when we all travel together, we will just do it in mine for now, until we work out what is best. Even if the risk of an accident is tiny, it is still an avoidable risk and that means I wouldn't do it.

Thanks for everyone's help.

#37 FuzzyChocolateToes

Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:57 PM

OP I have a 7.5yo who measures 130cm. He fits easily in a type G restraint. We have a Maxirider but I'd recommend a Maxiguard. In your scenario I'd get a Maxiguard for the 7yo.

Edited by FuzzyChocolateToes, 05 July 2018 - 12:59 PM.


#38 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:20 PM

Why can't one of your younger children go into the middle in a proper booster - with an anti submarine clip. How is that less safe than any other child seat harness.

Or just no go on holiday - that seems simpler at this point.

PPs need to provide data and stats rather than situation specific scary video clips.

#39 just roses

Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:39 PM

View PostChief Pancake Make, on 05 July 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Why can't one of your younger children go into the middle in a proper booster - with an anti submarine clip. How is that less safe than any other child seat harness.

Or just no go on holiday - that seems simpler at this point.

PPs need to provide data and stats rather than situation specific scary video clips.
What other harnesses are you talking about?

A 5pt harness is infinitely safer than a H harness with a lap belt, even with an anti-sub clip.

Why are you determined to see a H harness as safe despite evidence to the contrary?

#40 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:40 PM

Where is the evidence that with a anti submarine clip that they are less safe?

#41 just roses

Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:46 PM

View PostChief Pancake Make, on 05 July 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Where is the evidence that with a anti submarine clip that they are less safe?
Have you been reading this thread? Anyone who has spent even five minutes looking into this will know a H harness is not recommended, not safe and absolutely less safe than a booster with a built-in 5pt harness. Fair enough, at the start of this thread, you’d never heard of any issues with the H harness. But now you have and I am baffled why you’re defending a device that - until recently - you’d not even looked into.
https://www.vicroads...afety-harnesses

#42 Chief Pancake Make

Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:54 PM

Yeh I read it. I also said - when correctly used.

#43 just roses

Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:59 PM

View PostChief Pancake Make, on 05 July 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

Yeh I read it. I also said - when correctly used.
When correctly used it does not protect the body as much as a 5pt harness. And studies show most people don’t use them properly. How can you be so sure you are?

#44 4*shining*stars

Posted 05 July 2018 - 02:04 PM

Just throwing my 2c in...

All Nissan Patrols have 50/50 split middle row seats. This, I believe, makes it impossible to install an anchor point as the child restraint straps may fall into the gap between seats and make the restraint insecure.

Quirk, please double check that there is an anchor point and not a cargo tie down point behind the seat.

Unfortunately, I think your only options are to use the car as is or trade it in for a vehicle that has a lap/sash in the middle.

#45 Carmen_Sandiego

Posted 05 July 2018 - 02:56 PM

View PostChief Pancake Make, on 05 July 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Where is the evidence that with a anti submarine clip that they are less safe?

1. From Qld government site on Child restraint laws:
https://www.qld.gov..../children/types

However, research has indicated that the booster seat with a H-Harness option provides a lower level of safety in some types of crashes.

2. From the Gov site responsible for Child restraint testing in Australia

Research recommends using a child safety harness only in situations where it is not possible to replace your lap-only seatbelt with a lap-sash seatbelt.

I can keep going but I assume you are seeing now? I'm sorry this is obviously a surprise to you with the set up in your car perhaps not being as safe as you thought.


Edited by Carmen_Sandiego, 05 July 2018 - 02:57 PM.


#46 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:18 PM

View PostChief Pancake Make, on 05 July 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

Yeh I read it. I also said - when correctly used.

Even when correctly used an H Harness with booster seat is a lower level of safety than a booster seat with lap sash belt. I have been providing sources to this fact on EB since 2007 at least.

The fact that it is less safe is the reason why they introduced type G seats to restrain older/taller/heavier children in inbuilt 5pt harnesses.

An inbuilt harness moves with the child seat. An H harness pulls up a lap belt and potentially causes internal decapitation in an accident. It also is bolted to the car so higher load levels is placed on chest and neck.



#47 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:26 PM

http://infasecure.co...sory-harnesses/

https://www.vicroads...afety-harnesses

When and how to use child safety harnesses
Do not use a child safety harness if there is a lap-sash seat belt available.

Only use a child safety harness when there is a lap-only seat belt and it is not possible to replace it with a lap-sash seat belt.

If you cannot replace the lap-only seat belt with a lap-sash seat belt, you will need to use a child safety harness with a booster seat. In this case, you should use a booster seat with an 'anti-submarining' device. This holds the lap part of the seatbelt down low on your child’s hips.

Make sure the shoulder straps are not too tight and that you check the harness is fitted correctly every time you use it.



#48 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:30 PM

https://www.racv.com...a-seatbelt.html


Is a seat with an inbuilt harness safer than one that’s used with a seatbelt?

Yes.

There are even some seats on the market with an inbuilt harness that are suitable for children who are over 8 years old.

The difference is when a child is secured in a seat with a harness, the child is better secured and their head and chest will move around less in a crash. This means they are less likely to be injured.

When a child is in a seat with a harness, the child is better secured and their head and chest will move around less in a crash. This means they are less likely to be injured.
Once children move into a booster seat and there is only a single seatbelt securing them, their body will be thrown around more in a crash and they are also at risk of submarining. Submarining happens if a child who is too small to use a seatbelt and they slide down and out of their car seat. The crotch strap on a seat with a harness helps prevent this dangerous situation from happening.

#49 Veritas Vinum Arte

Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:38 PM

View PostChief Pancake Make, on 05 July 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

Yeh I read it. I also said - when correctly used.

A joint study on the efficency of child accessory harnesses (H harness) carried out by members of the Prince of Wales Medical Research Institute and the New South Wales Centre for Road Safety found that, “Based on pelvic restraint, head excursion and abdominal injury potential, results from this study suggest that in frontal impact at least, accessory child safety harness systems provide no better protection than lap–shoulder belt systems.

When the accessory child safety harness systems are misused the level of protection provided is seriously degraded. Given the high frequencies of child safety harness system misuse seen in field observation studies, and the fact that even when correctly used these system provide no improvement over a lap–shoulder belt, it seems likely that the risks of injury outweigh any perceived benefit of a child safety harness system over a lap–shoulder system.”


Read more at https://www.mouthsof...PrZkVjkKKYqQ.99

#50 Soontobegran

Posted 05 July 2018 - 07:13 PM

View PostVeritas Vinum Arte, on 05 July 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

Even when correctly used an H Harness with booster seat is a lower level of safety than a booster seat with lap sash belt. I have been providing sources to this fact on EB since 2007 at least.



Now I am confused. Do you mean a booster seat with no 5 point harness, just a lap belt across the hips and nothing restraining the upper body?




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