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'good men' should not be allowed to define right and wrong.


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#1 Fresh Start

Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:47 PM

Hannah Gadsby said that, and more, at a Women in Entertainment event today in the US.

https://www.sbs.com....in-viral-speech

I agree with her sentiments, we’ve all seen ‘good men’ let bad behaviour slide because it’s not over the line they draw for themselves and their mates.

Of course there are people on Twitter (you’ll see one in the story) intimating women would move and cross the lines to confuse men but I choose to ignore them.

What do you think?

ETA
Here is the full speech, I should’ve posted it earlier not the SBS story.
https://m.youtube.co...PyQ9vdHDozIqgXg

Edited by Fresh Start, 07 December 2018 - 09:18 PM.


#2 seayork2002

Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:52 PM

The only people that should be blamed for bad behaviour is the people who do the bad behaviour.

otherwise anyone who has knowledge of bad behaviour and does nothing and stays quiet can be blamed and this would also include woman? (ie there were plenty of women who knew about Harvey Weinsten, for example)

#3 Mollycoddle

Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:25 PM

 seayork2002, on 07 December 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

The only people that should be blamed for bad behaviour is the people who do the bad behaviour.

otherwise anyone who has knowledge of bad behaviour and does nothing and stays quiet can be blamed and this would also include woman? (ie there were plenty of women who knew about Harvey Weinsten, for example)

Who was it who said 'all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing'?

If people who are witness to the behaviour stand by and do nothing, that's how toxic cultures take hold.

#4 Milly Molly Mandy

Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:30 PM

I guess part of the problem is everybody's definition of the line is different. You see it all the time here in EB land. Women talking about how their husbands treat them and that they are really good loving husbands but........ I read some of those posts and think those men are horrid abusive men, but others don't see it that way and certainly not the wives. The disrespect often mentioned is way way way over my line, but not necessarily others'

#5 BadCat

Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:38 PM

She makes a valid point.

I'm tired of "good men" which is all of them by their own reckoning, shifting the line to suit their mood.

No.  The line is the line.  It's not a sliding scale of how crap you can be depending on who you're speaking to.

And I don't begrudge people crossing the line once in a while.  Life is like that.  But when you cross it, own it.  Don't pretend the line moved so that what you did was OK.

#6 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:41 PM

I have had a few a very similar conversations at work about a previous manager  -  who by all accounts, sounds like a bully and a pig.  

Their comments - all from educated women - have been:

"He wasn't' that bad.  He only made a few people cry".
"He would yell and throw things, but then he'd be fine once it was out of his system".
"Yes, XYZ x 3 made bullying complaints against him, but there was only one payout"
"On the whole, he was a really nice guy - we just tell you the bad stuff, but there was a lot of good times too".

This man made staff cry, threw things around the office, yelled at people regularly - and yet they were all making excuses for him.  This was in a workplace that is mainly women, with a male manager.

So sometimes women are not good at setting the line either.

#7 Kallie88

Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:43 PM

 BadCat, on 07 December 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

She makes a valid point.

I'm tired of "good men" which is all of them by their own reckoning, shifting the line to suit their mood.

No.  The line is the line.  It's not a sliding scale of how crap you can be depending on who you're speaking to.

And I don't begrudge people crossing the line once in a while.  Life is like that.  But when you cross it, own it.  Don't pretend the line moved so that what you did was OK.

Exactly, those are the 'only' people. Sexism is bad, but it was "only" a joke. I would never harass anyone, and if "only" you would take it as a compliment, you wouldn't think it was harassment. I don't rape women, I "only" make rape and death threats online. I'm a good guy, I "only" disrespect women's experiences and complain men are the real victims.
*gets too p*ssed off and starts muttering expletives*

#8 Ailurophiliac

Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:48 PM

 Milly Molly Mandy, on 07 December 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

I guess part of the problem is everybody's definition of the line is different. You see it all the time here in EB land. Women talking about how their husbands treat them and that they are really good loving husbands but........ I read some of those posts and think those men are horrid abusive men, but others don't see it that way and certainly not the wives. The disrespect often mentioned is way way way over my line, but not necessarily others'
I agreed with Hannah Gadsby but this is how I tend to see it as well. For example, my line and Badcats line for certain behaviour might be miles apart, yet we may have the same line for others. Things are changing with regards to those lines but for others it will take time for everybody to get their lines together. I despair at times when people cannot see the very obvious lines that have been drawn yet choose to rub them out and redraw them.

*sigh*...we have so far to go....

#9 BadCat

Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:52 PM

I don't think everyone's line has to be the same.  As long as it's within a certain deviation of social norms it's probably not a big issue.

I think everyone needs to make their own line consistent instead of moving it to justify their behaviour.

If your line is consistent then others can assess you based on where your line is.  If your line shifts constantly that's just you trying to deceive people about who you really are inside.

Men have consistently failed to draw reasonable lines and they move them.  A lot.  Perhaps Hannah is right in saying it's time women drew the lines for social norms.

Edited by BadCat, 07 December 2018 - 02:54 PM.


#10 Kallie88

Posted 07 December 2018 - 03:38 PM

I dunno, I think the lines on how we treat other people should be fairly clear, basic respect and decency shouldn't be that hard - these men usually know not to treat other men the way they treat women. If we want to move the lines on what we accept for ourselves that's different, but if someone says I'm uncomfortable with you doing xyz it should be pretty simple, don't.

#11 BadCat

Posted 07 December 2018 - 03:47 PM

Well yeah, you'd think it wouldn't be that hard.

But historically, men have drawn the line in some very unacceptable places.  Why are they still allowed to be the drawer of lines for society at large when they have screwed it up so badly so many times?

#12 marple

Posted 07 December 2018 - 03:52 PM

 Kallie88, on 07 December 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

I dunno, I think the lines on how we treat other people should be fairly clear, basic respect and decency shouldn't be that hard - these men usually know not to treat other men the way they treat women. If we want to move the lines on what we accept for ourselves that's different, but if someone says I'm uncomfortable with you doing xyz it should be pretty simple, don't.

I agree. It also starts down the whole "all men are bad, just in varying ways " thing , which I thought was long gone.
I like Hannah, from what I have seen of her,  but  I don't find her funny.

#13 Kallie88

Posted 07 December 2018 - 03:57 PM

I agree bad cat, men have shown they can't do it, they have revoked their right to draw the line

#14 marple

Posted 07 December 2018 - 04:16 PM

 Kallie88, on 07 December 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I agree bad cat, men have shown they can't do it, they have revoked their right to draw the line

That's weird we agree but disagree :)

#15 BadCat

Posted 07 December 2018 - 04:17 PM

 marple, on 07 December 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

I agree. It also starts down the whole "all men are bad, just in varying ways " thing , which I thought was long gone.
I like Hannah, from what I have seen of her,  but  I don't find her funny.

It's not about all men being bad.  It's about men as a sex being bad at drawing appropriate lines.  The fact is that men have, as a sex, failed to draw appropriate lines since the dawn of time.  

Let's see what women can do.

Perhaps we'll be worse.  Perhaps we'll never know because of cowardly men who would keep us away from that kind of power because they don't want to lose their self granted right to shift their own line so they can paint themselves as good no matter what they do.


Also, whether or not you find Hannah funny is irrelevant to the conversation.

#16 Mmmcheese

Posted 07 December 2018 - 04:59 PM

The patriarchy is insideous and will take more time to dismantle. Unfortunately there are many women and men who can't see it for what is. I haven't watched nanette yet because I haven't been in the right headspace, but Hannah Gadsby is ****ing awesome.

#17 angelam pacificae

Posted 07 December 2018 - 06:12 PM

To me it seems that we need a collaborative approach.  Not men without women and not women without men.  But everybody having a chance to participate in line-drawing.

#18 Kallie88

Posted 07 December 2018 - 06:14 PM

I think it should be women, largely because the behavior that is a problem is almost always behavior directed at women or stereotypical femininity

#19 Literary Lemur

Posted 07 December 2018 - 06:48 PM

 angelam pacificae, on 07 December 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

To me it seems that we need a collaborative approach.  Not men without women and not women without men.  But everybody having a chance to participate in line-drawing.

I think if the line is about how we treat women then no men don't really get to have a say. They don't get to decide that women shouldn't be treated as autonomous human beings. I think men are so accustomed to thinking that women are ultimately there for them - for sex, to birth their children, to be pleasing on the eye, to carry the domestic and thought load, to support them in their life endeavours etc ETC.

#20 angelam pacificae

Posted 07 December 2018 - 06:58 PM

 Literary Lemur, on 07 December 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

I think if the line is about how we treat women then no men don't really get to have a say. They don't get to decide that women shouldn't be treated as autonomous human beings. I think men are so accustomed to thinking that women are ultimately there for them - for sex, to birth their children, to be pleasing on the eye, to carry the domestic and thought load, to support them in their life endeavours etc ETC.

Is that what was meant, though?  I thought Hannah was talking about ethical and social lines more broadly.

#21 Fresh Start

Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:40 PM


 angelam pacificae, on 07 December 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

Is that what was meant, though?  I thought Hannah was talking about ethical and social lines more broadly.

It’s about misogyny so it’s about the line men draw for their treatment of women and I agree with her they do have different lines for their wives, daughters and other relatives v. “women”.

I’d bet every man who sends foul insulting stuff to Clementine Ford thinks he’s a good man and would be horrified if someone did the same to his wife or daughter - because he moves the line for his own behaviour.

The one Clem posted today used his Instagram name so others found him - he says he is “making the most of life and seeing the best in the world” and is raising two kids. I guarantee he thinks he’s a good guy and he’d be ropeable if some said this to his wife:

Quote

**** you’re such an ugly repulsive ****! Die in a dumpster fire you gap toothed mongoloid.

I guarantee he thinks he’s a good guy.

#22 Fresh Start

Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:18 PM

Here is the full thing:
https://m.youtube.co...PyQ9vdHDozIqgXg

#23 CallMeFeral

Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:35 PM

 Fresh Start, on 07 December 2018 - 08:40 PM, said:

I guarantee he thinks he’s a good guy.

He even has that "all that is required for evil to prosper" quote on his facebook profile I believe

#24 IamtheMumma

Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:44 PM

I didn't see this until tonight but this morning had colleagues getting fired up about it. Political correctness going too far etc. I had to leave the room. Even then the guy followed me, after I said I was tapping out of the conversation, to explain to me his point of view.

Having watched the video, they missed the point completely.

#25 Fresh Start

Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:46 PM

Of course they did.




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