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4.5yo toilet training- Pulling hair out!


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#26 Holidayromp

Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:44 PM

I’m not at all worried about his development. He is on the latter half of normal.

He is very bright but the youngest of four and I know he eventually does get there in all areas but in his own time and no one can tell him any different.

Thank you to the pp who suggested pull-ups.  I’m going to go against my own tt tactics and get them.  They caused my other children to regress as they are simply another nappy so will try.  Will nappy pants or something similar be just as good - they pull up IYKWIM?  Or does it have to be pull-ups.

I agree re stress ..... they do pick up on it. I lost it today - not my finest hour.

Thank you to you all.  I am certainly taking your advice on board.

Who would have known I would have had sooooo much trouble with number four having gone through it with both sexes before hand!!

#27 Holidayromp

Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:51 PM

View PostSoontobegran, on 13 May 2019 - 04:48 PM, said:

Change the narrative.
Tell him he is going into pull ups.....hide all his undies and do not discuss again for a few weeks. Pretend it is not a problem to you at all.
Even though it is not developmentally abnormal to be like this if you feel that he has developmental issues that are separate to TT then see your GP for a referral to a paediatrician.






Main advice is to not listen to anyone who tells you that you are not doing it right.

Thank you x

I have no concerns with his development as normal is often a broad spectrum before they start school before levelling out more.

However if he continues to exhibit trends different to the norm then I will see assistance.

He will be going to a private school who are ready to assist and will provide the necessary resources if required.

I only highlighted those points to show that he’s takes his time meeting milestones.  In fact he wasn’t in any hurry being birthed! Had a scheduled CS ten days post due date when he showed absolutely zero signs of coming!!

#28 José

Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:53 PM

View PostHolidayromp, on 13 May 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:



As his mother I know he isn’t developmentally ready.

He started walking just before his 2nd birthday, he cannot yet talk in complete sentences (his speech is definitely developing just in his own time) and other examples that actually puts him a year younger than what he currently is so realistically, for him this is normal.

It’s not uncommon for him to get into pencils, crayons etc and draw over the walls, get into his older sister’s hair product and smear that everywhere how can I hope that he will keep his hands off other students things let alone listen (he will not listen to anyone).



this makes it sound as though there are developmental problems.
being a year behind developmentally is significant.
an assessment by a developmental paed ir psych who could do a griffiths assessment would be a good idea.

#29 Paddlepop

Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:59 PM

Nappy pants are as absorbent as a nappy with the feature of being able to be pulled up and down. Pull ups are less absorbent, will allow the child to feel wet before the urine gets absorbed, and are designed for toilet training.

When did he first crawl?

18 months is the latest time for “normal” walking. My DD was 21 months. Just before his second birthday is not the later half of normal.

#30 Soontobegran

Posted 13 May 2019 - 06:04 PM

My NT #5 displayed some pretty unusual behaviours that did not seem to be age appropriate.
He was more needy and naughty than the 4 girls.

Some behaviours can be attributed to position in family rather than a symptom of anything else.
I have no idea whether this is the case for HR but as a mum who has had 3 other children I would imagine she'd get the vibe if there was a problem.

Hopefully things will become more clear soon.

#31 José

Posted 13 May 2019 - 06:22 PM

View PostSoontobegran, on 13 May 2019 - 06:04 PM, said:

My NT #5 displayed some pretty unusual behaviours that did not seem to be age appropriate.
He was more needy and naughty than the 4 girls.

Some behaviours can be attributed to position in family rather than a symptom of anything else.
I have no idea whether this is the case for HR but as a mum who has had 3 other children I would imagine she'd get the vibe if there was a problem.

Hopefully things will become more clear soon.

I have lost count the number of times I’ve heard people say they wish they had sourced help/ assessment for their child sooner. They say it was comments from others that contribute to them not checking out concerns.
It’s comments like this that can delay kids getting the support they need.

I always used to like hearing an old member, BMJ, say ‘if in doubt check it out’

#32 Navy Blue

Posted 13 May 2019 - 06:50 PM

My number four child was by far the hardest to tt. I know family members were wondering what we were doing wrong.

I went back to pull ups for a while too. My son was 4yrs 7mths when he was trained in the end, but like I said happened quickly then, like a matter of days! Hopefully your DS is the same.

#33 QuirkyMum

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:01 PM

View PostHolidayromp, on 13 May 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

Thank you so much for all of your replies.

He almost broke me today which resulted in sh*t all down the hallway a massive puddle of wee across the new carpet in the play area.

As his mother I know he isn’t developmentally ready.

He started walking just before his 2nd birthday, he cannot yet talk in complete sentences (his speech is definitely developing just in his own time) and other examples that actually puts him a year younger than what he currently is so realistically, for him this is normal.

I am also getting pressure to put him into school well before he is ready.

It’s not uncommon for him to get into pencils, crayons etc and draw over the walls, get into his older sister’s hair product and smear that everywhere how can I hope that he will keep his hands off other students things let alone listen (he will not listen to anyone).

So obviously this is adding to the pressure of getting him tt.
Developmental pediatrician?
Just mention smearing hair products, speech, TT issues, not listening to anyone at school and potentially drawing on walls in Kindy.
I read all replies and can see that you aren't keen on checking his development issues out and getting help so I thought there's no point mentioning developmental pediatrician.
Then I realized your are saying your 4.5 year old isn't using complete sentences. It might be a fluke and there's nothing wrong with him, but speech theapists can help ( ours even helped with TT before starting school).
I was told my child would be completely non verbal moderately autistic. After so much therapy he started talking and even he was using complete sentences at that age.
And everyone screamed how delayed ( and smart) he was.
About TT: best thing you can do now is leave him alone. One evening: Don't want to use toilet? Fine. All undies go in the bin. Put night nappy on and night-night. In the morning there are no undies. Pull ups or nappy pants and forget about the toilet. Nappy pants won't make him uncomfortable so they will be good for forgetting about TT. If he isn't bothered by wet undies, he won't care about wet pull ups. I too had a defiant kid who was impossible to bribe. Don't stress, one day he will take nappy off and will just use the toilet.

#34 Caribou

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:04 PM

Does anyone even sell pull-ups now? I thought they were called nappy pants now. I was on hunt for them for DS but only found nappy pants.

#35 Caribou

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:06 PM

You could try reusable toilet training undies? https://www.bestandl...-Pants/p/491651

#36 quartz85

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:18 PM

You need to see your GP as a starting point. The blue baby book we get in NSW would have a list of things that he should be doing by a certain age. The things you mentioned are not within the normal range, regardless of birth order, gender.... Or even see the local health centre for an early childhood nurse. You've got nothing to lose going. Sometimes parents can not trust their own judgement with their kids.

#37 iwanttosleepin

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:36 PM

I agree with qartz85 - the things you have mentioned are not within the normal range.  

As I posted above I have a 4.5 year old boy. He is a third child with 2 much older brothers.  

He speaks in full sentences and has done for a long time now. He's been toilet trained for 2.5 years now.  I don't know of any of his friends who are not toilet trained.

#38 afterlaughter

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:41 PM

I would definitely work on speech with a speech pathologist as a matter of urgency. At 4.5 years not using full sentences is a red flag and a little help with language may in fact translate into better communication and ability to toilet train.

#39 Hands Up

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:46 PM

HR we were in the same DIG. Your DS is about to turn five and your post rings serious alarm bells for me. My DS (same age) also reaches milestones in his own time and has been on the later side for most things. Despite this, he is toilet trained, speaking well but we are facing OT for poor fine motor skills to get him set up for school next year. I think you are potentially facing something more serious.

#40 NeedSleepNow

Posted 13 May 2019 - 07:48 PM

Please make an appointment with a speech pathologist and a developmental paediatrician. I used to work exclusively with children (as a psychologist) in an early assessment unit, and your post raises significant red flags. I truly believe you are doing him a complete disservice by not at least getting a professional assessment and opinion, and I can’t really work out why you wouldn’t. Not speaking in sentences at 4.5 is wayyyyy off the normal curve, and I can’t fathom any parent ignoring it and just hoping it levels out before school.

ETA - my eldest DD has some toileting issues and despite knowing a reasonable amount about it, I sought out professional help for us.

Edited by NeedSleepNow, 13 May 2019 - 07:51 PM.


#41 Kiwi Bicycle

Posted 13 May 2019 - 08:00 PM

I gàve you some advice upthread but after reading more you need to get extra support for your little guy. My DS wasn't fully trained until 4.5 years but he did ahve a medical reason for urinary incontinence. He's been going to speech thearpy for 2 year now plus OT for one year to support fine motor skills. I've just taken him to a Developmental paed and he's  being considered immature, but he was at 4.5 years doing way much more than your little man.
He started school  this year and it hasn't gone well. He's in a class of 14 but the teacher is still finding it tough with him refusing to do work or destrying it. It's not going to be easier at school. Getting therapy, even at a private school is not easy. Pulling him out of class to do therapy is disruptive and the other kids notice. Get help now while he's not full time otherwise he's going going find it really hard to catch up.

#42 Bearynice

Posted 13 May 2019 - 08:21 PM

Right what I’m about to say might sound harsh, but I think you need a plan of attack moving forward....

Go to gp and ask for referral to local continence clinic. They will help specifically with the toileting

Discuss with gp re: speech. They will know local resources but often there is a drop in clinic where they can assess speech and might be able to suggest some tips for specific sounds .

With more language you might find that toilet training is a smoother process.

Have u tried visuals to help with tt? There is so much to toileting ( smells, fears, sounds etc) it can be tricky to determine what is the speed bump in the tt process

Even though you say you have no concerns re development I echo other posters in that there are some behaviours in there that could benefit with some extra support and strategies.

So I would be discussing with gp re a paediatrician referral.there is often a wait for appointment, so if it comes close and you don’t need it that is great.





#43 Paddlepop

Posted 13 May 2019 - 09:26 PM

View PostHolidayromp, on 13 May 2019 - 05:44 PM, said:

I’m not at all worried about his development. He is on the latter half of normal.

He is very bright but the youngest of four and I know he eventually does get there in all areas but in his own time and no one can tell him any different.

Being bright doesn't mean that he might not have issues. Being the youngest doesn't mean that he has to be slower, and outside of the normal range, at reaching milestones. Milestones exist for a reason.

View PostHolidayromp, on 13 May 2019 - 05:51 PM, said:

I only highlighted those points to show that he’s takes his time meeting milestones. In fact he wasn’t in any hurry being birthed! Had a scheduled CS ten days post due date when he showed absolutely zero signs of coming!!


My DD wasn't in any hurry either until the Ob. pulled her out by her head with forceps, but whatever.  Your son is not reaching milestones within the normal range. Not just one milestone. Multiple milestones. This is important. This is significant. I think you seriously need to consider having him checked out for developmental delays and issues like his speech. His speech is not normal at all.

View PostSoontobegran, on 13 May 2019 - 06:04 PM, said:

Some behaviours can be attributed to position in family rather than a symptom of anything else.
I have no idea whether this is the case for HR but as a mum who has had 3 other children I would imagine she'd get the vibe if there was a problem.

Hopefully things will become more clear soon.

By position in the family do you mean that HR might have overly babied him and not encouraged him to grow up on time? Just because she has other children doesn't mean that she'll notice if there's an issue with her DS. In fact she hasn't noticed that he does have issues. She's written them all off as normal. They're not.

HR: Please get your son checked out. The earlier he has intervention the better the outcome for him. At the very least get his hearing checked in case that's impacting on his speech.

Edited by Paddlepop, 13 May 2019 - 09:27 PM.


#44 PrincessPeach

Posted 13 May 2019 - 10:23 PM

I missed the speech delay part.

To be at least 12 months behind at this age is not normal, they should be speaking full sentences. Yes they might have pronounciation issues, but sentence construction should be there.

By 4 they should have the concept of sentence structure, my speech delayed child has just turned 5 & we know he is about 9 months behind in his expressive language skills, he has sentence structure & has had for at least a year.

Plus the speech delay could be a big contributing factor to his behaviour. I'm in a support group for parents of kids with verbal apraxia & its a common theme there, especially for kids on the severe end of the scale.

#45 Ellie bean

Posted 13 May 2019 - 11:56 PM

I’d get him checked out HR. If there’s no issue there’s no harm done, if there is then youve got a head start on things. Wishing you all the best

#46 Expelliarmus

Posted 14 May 2019 - 12:17 AM

View PostSoontobegran, on 13 May 2019 - 06:04 PM, said:

Some behaviours can be attributed to position in family rather than a symptom of anything else.
I have no idea whether this is the case for HR but as a mum who has had 3 other children I would imagine she'd get the vibe if there was a problem.

Hopefully things will become more clear soon.
None of the behaviours OP has talked about can be attributed to position in the family.

There are a number of parents who do not get 'the vibe'.

Hoping things will become clearer is a futility.

OP, there are some serious and significant delays at play here. It is not on the latter side of normal. It is very delayed and outside normal.

Hope will not take you very far because you need to see a developmental paediatrician and access, at the very least, Speech pathology and OT services for your DS.

#47 Soontobegran

Posted 14 May 2019 - 05:12 AM

View PostJosé, on 13 May 2019 - 06:22 PM, said:

I have lost count the number of times I’ve heard people say they wish they had sourced help/ assessment for their child sooner. They say it was comments from others that contribute to them not checking out concerns.
It’s comments like this that can delay kids getting the support they need.

I always used to like hearing an old member, BMJ, say ‘if in doubt check it out’

Which is why I suggested the same and HR said she would.

Sometimes people need to read what is actually said.
I am a huge advocate for intervention and resent any suggestion to the contrary.

Edited by Soontobegran, 14 May 2019 - 05:40 AM.


#48 Soontobegran

Posted 14 May 2019 - 05:15 AM

View PostExpelliarmus, on 14 May 2019 - 12:17 AM, said:

None of the behaviours OP has talked about can be attributed to position in the family.

There are a number of parents who do not get 'the vibe'.

Hoping things will become clearer is a futility.

OP, there are some serious and significant delays at play here. It is not on the latter side of normal. It is very delayed and outside normal.

Hope will not take you very far because you need to see a developmental paediatrician and access, at the very least, Speech pathology and OT services for your DS.

I actually explained that in MY family there was definitely a   difference. As he is NT and since I sought help at the time because I had some concerns AND was told by the paediatrician that they WERE related to his position I related my story.
I also said that I had no idea whether this was the case for HR's son.


View PostPaddlepop, on 13 May 2019 - 09:26 PM, said:

Being bright doesn't mean that he might not have issues. Being the youngest doesn't mean that he has to be slower, and outside of the normal range, at reaching milestones. Milestones exist for a reason.



My DD wasn't in any hurry either until the Ob. pulled her out by her head with forceps, but whatever.  Your son is not reaching milestones within the normal range. Not just one milestone. Multiple milestones. This is important. This is significant. I think you seriously need to consider having him checked out for developmental delays and issues like his speech. His speech is not normal at all.



By position in the family do you mean that HR might have overly babied him and not encouraged him to grow up on time? Just because she has other children doesn't mean that she'll notice if there's an issue with her DS. In fact she hasn't noticed that he does have issues. She's written them all off as normal. They're not.

HR: Please get your son checked out. The earlier he has intervention the better the outcome for him. At the very least get his hearing checked in case that's impacting on his speech.

No I do not but thanks for your suggestion that people with lots of children may not notice the behaviours of the latter ones. Why do you suggest that ? Because they are busy? Don't like them as much? Don't care ?

Edited by Soontobegran, 14 May 2019 - 05:30 AM.


#49 Caribou

Posted 14 May 2019 - 08:44 AM

View PostHolidayromp, on 13 May 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

It’s not uncommon for him to get into pencils, crayons etc and draw over the walls, get into his older sister’s hair product and smear that everywhere how can I hope that he will keep his hands off other students things let alone listen (he will not listen to anyone).



That in bold, is not normal. By 4.5yrs old, that should have stopped. It sounds like an impulse issue, I truly think a developmental paed would not hurt here.

No one wants to think there might be something wrong with their children. Maybe nothing is actually wrong, but he may benefit from some OT will will bring him in line with milestones for his age, its not so much about hurrying him up, but minimising any future problems that may arise from behaviour that is outside the realm of normal. Kids also, can often respond better to people not their parents. They know where their parents line is, but they still see you as a safe place, so they can push further. an OT/devp paed will be able to assess and let you know what steps need to be taken, if any.

Edited by Caribou, 14 May 2019 - 09:21 AM.


#50 Expelliarmus

Posted 14 May 2019 - 09:10 AM

View PostSoontobegran, on 14 May 2019 - 05:15 AM, said:

I actually explained that in MY family there was definitely a      difference. As he is NT and since I sought help at the time because I had some concerns AND was told by the paediatrician that they WERE related to his position I related my story.
I also said that I had no idea whether this was the case for HR's son.

No I do not but thanks for your suggestion that people with lots of children may not notice the behaviours of the latter ones. Why do you suggest that ? Because they are busy? Don't like them as much? Don't care ?
Nevertheless, OP’s child, having all the hallmarks of both a sensory processing disorder and a speech and language disorder plus some elements that could be attributed to global delay has not indicated things which indicate it’s a familial positioning thing. There are also some red flags for poor impulse control which is indicative of lowered executive functioning - this is linked to poorer outcomes as an adult as illustrated by the Dunedin study.

I think you’ve also over extrapolated what Paddlepop was saying.

OP, I hope someone can recommend a good Developmental Paed in your area so that you can get some strategies in place to help your DS.




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