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Milk creates, mental health, terrorism, male heroics, and her job


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#1 Amica

Posted 14 August 2019 - 05:54 PM

Post by Sherele Moody below:

24-year-old Michaela Dunn is the 42nd Australian woman killed in 2019. She was  allegedly murdered by a man in Sydney's CBD yesterday. She was many things and least of all, defined by the job she did. Her mum describes Michaela as "a beautiful, loving woman who had studied at university and travelled widely."
I can't believe we are having this conversation about another woman lost to violence so soon after the last time I made one of these posts.

Milk crates, mental health, terrorism, male heroics and Michaela's job .... these are the subjects that are dominating the public discussion around the death of Michaela and the wounding of another woman yesterday.

The discussions of yesterday's event swiftly warped away from the fact that an act of male violence killed this young woman.
And now we know that the man who is alleged to have killed Michaela was also a domestic violence offender.
Police have described him as a low-level DV offender -  a terrible euphemism for a man with a history of violence against women.
Police must never under-estimate the danger of men with a history of violence. Especially those who target family members.
Perhaps if his abusive history was taken seriously, Michaela might still be alive.

RIP MICHAELA DUNN ❤️

#2 opethmum

Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:04 PM

She was killed by a terrorist act, He was a terrorist. Anyone saying otherwise will incur my wrath. It was not a mental illness, he called her into an apartment and deliberately wanted to do everything he set out to do, murder and mayhem. Mental illness my ass.

He is a domestic violence terrorist and he deserves to have the book thrown at him, I wish him well at Goulburn Super Max, he will be right at home.

He wanted martyrdom, he wanted death by cop and thank heavens he was denied. I want his evil ideology exposed.

RIP Michaela Dunn indeed. I wish sincere condolences to her family and wish the other victim well in her recovery and all the other victims that have been impacted that day. I praise those who actually got off their ass and stopped this narcissist from causing further carnage.

Edited by opethmum, 14 August 2019 - 06:07 PM.


#3 kadoodle

Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:21 PM

Once again DV is the gateway drug. When are our law enforcement agencies going to start monitoring these thugs?

#4 purplekitty

Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:36 PM

View Postopethmum, on 14 August 2019 - 06:04 PM, said:

He wanted martyrdom, he wanted death by cop and thank heavens he was denied. I want his evil ideology exposed.

What ideology?

#5 No Drama Please

Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:40 PM

Maybe something like labelling them as domestic terrorists and treat them with the same criteria as other terrorists. So a large well funded department who would share information freely with other government departments.

If they suspect someone was about to commit a domestic terrorist offence, there would be a team available to swoop in and raid the house. Take them out of the house and find out if they knew of any other domestic terrorists who would be thinking of committing an act.

The victims would be treated as actual victims, instead of accusing them of enabling, asking them why they didn’t seek help or leave the terrorist earlier. You would have long term sentences imposed. There would be public outcry if they ever tried to offend again.

#6 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:43 PM

i think domestic violence was a huge factor, violence against women (as usual) - but i’m not so sure we can rule out mental illness in this instance...he had self admitted to a mental health facility (according to reports, which of course could be inaccurate)


#7 Lesley225

Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:51 PM

When I heard about this all I  thought was imagine if he had ready access to a gun...

#8 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:23 PM

View PostLucrezia Borgia, on 14 August 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

i think domestic violence was a huge factor, violence against women (as usual) - but i’m not so sure we can rule out mental illness in this instance...he had self admitted to a mental health facility (according to reports, which of course could be inaccurate)
I agree.

I think that we need to acknowledge that family violence and mental illness  CAN co-exist. And that each can exacerbate the other. It is not an excuse. Both CAN be a factor that heightens the incidence of the other (not MUST be). Awareness of the increased risk when the two are combined is wise. It is not discounting that a person who is violent is violent and must be answerable to the same. It is recognising patterns and risk factors.

#9 Kallie88

Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:29 PM

View PostSkeptiHandsOnMum, on 14 August 2019 - 09:23 PM, said:


I agree.

I think that we need to acknowledge that family violence and mental illness  CAN co-exist. And that each can exacerbate the other. It is not an excuse. Both CAN be a factor that heightens the incidence of the other (not MUST be). Awareness of the increased risk when the two are combined is wise. It is not discounting that a person who is violent is violent and must be answerable to the same. It is recognising patterns and risk factors.

I think that's too confounding. Many more individuals with mental illness do not commit violent crimes. Statistically those with mental illness are much more likely to harm themselves than others and much more likely to be victims of violent crime than perpetrators. To say mental illness may exacerbate violent tendencies becomes a bit of a red herring to distract from the violent histories that are the real and pertinent risk factor for this sort of rampage.

#10 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:36 PM

View PostKallie88, on 14 August 2019 - 09:29 PM, said:

I think that's too confounding. Many more individuals with mental illness do not commit violent crimes. Statistically those with mental illness are much more likely to harm themselves than others and much more likely to be victims of violent crime than perpetrators. To say mental illness may exacerbate violent tendencies becomes a bit of a red herring to distract from the violent histories that are the real and pertinent risk factor for this sort of rampage.
I think that it is naive to ignore any risk factor. Nowhere did I say to ignore his violent tendencies and to write them off as mental illness. But if someone has violent tendencies and we ignore the addition of paranoia or other form of mental illness, particularly if acute/untreated, then we are being naive and ignorant to think that this is not a red flag for his unrelated/independent violent tendencies to be exacerbated.

#11 Kallie88

Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:43 PM

It's not ignoring it, it's acknowledging that it's not helpful or measurable. And if it was a reasonable risk factor to consider it would also show up in the female population, but we know that women, mentally ill or otherwise, rarely murder anyone. Mental illness is not a precursor to violence, violence is.

#12 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:47 PM

isn’t it possible though that mental illness presents differently in males as opposed to females? it was a factor in this incident. it can’t be ignored. had his mental illness been properly treated, maybe a woman wouldn’t be dead, and another woman wouldnt be in hospital recovering from a stab wound to the back.

#13 Kallie88

Posted 14 August 2019 - 10:01 PM

Or, if his previous DV had been properly  treated those women would be alive and well. More men have mental illness and don't hurt anyone than those that do. So, again, if mental illness was a major, or even significant factor the incidence of the two happening concurrently would be much greater than it is.

#14 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 14 August 2019 - 10:02 PM

View PostKallie88, on 14 August 2019 - 09:43 PM, said:

It's not ignoring it, it's acknowledging that it's not helpful or measurable. And if it was a reasonable risk factor to consider it would also show up in the female population, but we know that women, mentally ill or otherwise, rarely murder anyone. Mental illness is not a precursor to violence, violence is.
Yes. But either are a risk factor for the other. It does show up in the female population - just that they rarely exhibit the same extent of violence. That is a problem. Why, when triggered to violence/aggression, men feel entitled to go the extra distance.

I am not going to walk into the home of a person with a history of violence and ignore it because there is not a comorbidity of mental illness. But if I walk into the home of someone with a history of both, you can bet your bottom dollar that I am considering that there is extra risk as they fuel each other, and the person in a psychosis is a whole lot harder to de-escalate from potential violence than a person who is not psychotic.

Is violence measurable? No. Nor is the broad label of "mental illness". But if I think that the person who is in a paranoid psychosis does not have an increased risk of violence, then I am putting myself at risk. Sure, that violence might be directed at the self, but if I try to intervene and protect them from further self harm, I can assure you that I am at risk.

The broad label of "mental illness" is unhelpful here. In 99.999% of people, their mental illness is unrelated to their violence. But that is including depression, anxiety and a whole range of other illnesses, particularly the stable, medicated patient. But it is leaving out the unmedicated, poorly controlled patient in a psychosis. Consider the post natal psychosis mother who kills her baby - are we going to exclude her mental illness diagnosis in putting into play measures to flag her increased risk? Does she need to have a history of violence to make her a risk?  It is emotive, but as real a chemical imbalance as the undiagnosed/unmedicated psychotic adult male. We have a mental health system that turns these people away, time after time.

It does not have to be one at the expense of the other. These instances can highlight the need for society and "the system" to flag and pay attention to both violent perpetrators and the mentally ill. Separate groups. But both can increase the risk of the other. Even if it is coincidence, wouldn't it be great if both of this person's issues had been flagged. If he had been placed on an order and both he and others kept safe when he presented to hospital. If he had been placed on a family violence alert. If the two systems had been linked and when he presented to hospital in a mentally unbalanced state, it was recognised that he had a past history of violence, so this might be his "known"/historical go-to in a range of situations?

I HATE violence.  I think that there is no EXCUSE. But there are risk factors. We need to acknowledge them.

#15 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 14 August 2019 - 10:06 PM

replying to Kallie above

well, we’ll never know..but it doesn’t negate the fact that, in this instance, mental illness does appear to have played a role. his sister has spoken publicly about his “descent into insanity”, the police have made numerous references to him being treated by a psyche - even now, while under police guard ...

Edited by Lucrezia Borgia, 14 August 2019 - 10:06 PM.


#16 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 14 August 2019 - 10:13 PM

View PostKallie88, on 14 August 2019 - 10:01 PM, said:

Or, if his previous DV had been properly  treated those women would be alive and well. More men have mental illness and don't hurt anyone than those that do. So, again, if mental illness was a major, or even significant factor the incidence of the two happening concurrently would be much greater than it is.
Much of my time is spent in an environment where I deal with the impacts of both. Maybe it is confirmation bias on my part, but it is ignorant to think that it is rare for the two to coexist, regardless of whether it is causation or correlation - it does not matter when you are at the pointy end of the violence and trying to stay alive.

I speak also from personal experience. No one can convince me that my ExDH's obsession with me did not increase as his mental illness worsened. It did not CAUSE him to push me around, but a bad day certainly increased his feelings of loss of control, which other people may have dealt with in another way, but for him, with his learned violent behaviours, it was the way to express himself when he was at a loss for other ways.

Abusive people exist independent of mental illness. Mentally ill people exist independent of abusiveness. In most cases you are one or the other and not both. But if you tick each box independently, and then the two coincide, it can be a recipe for disaster.

Edited by SkeptiHandsOnMum, 14 August 2019 - 10:16 PM.


#17 FuzzyChocolateToes

Posted 14 August 2019 - 11:21 PM

View PostKallie88, on 14 August 2019 - 09:43 PM, said:

It's not ignoring it, it's acknowledging that it's not helpful or measurable. And if it was a reasonable risk factor to consider it would also show up in the female population, but we know that women, mentally ill or otherwise, rarely murder anyone. Mental illness is not a precursor to violence, violence is.
Yet nurses working in mental health and emergency departments experience high levels of aggression in the workplace. https://theconversat...main-weak-76019
https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/27339029/

We are derailing this thread, which was a tribute to the victims of this crime by, discussing the perpetrator.

#18 SkeptiHandsOnMum

Posted 14 August 2019 - 11:40 PM

View PostFuzzyChocolateToes, on 14 August 2019 - 11:21 PM, said:

We are derailing this thread, which was a tribute to the victims of this crime by, discussing the perpetrator.
So true. Sorry.

RIP Michaela Dunn. Rest truly in peace, despite the awfulness of your death. May your family and friends have good memories that can slowly make them smile again at mention of your name.

#19 kadoodle

Posted 19 August 2019 - 06:49 AM

https://mobile.abc.n...0OUUU0WF2EKJo4M

#20 Hands Up

Posted 19 August 2019 - 08:21 AM

Thanks for sharing kadoodle. RIP Michaela Dunn. You mattered.

#21 Bethlehem Babe

Posted 19 August 2019 - 08:29 AM

View Postkadoodle, on 19 August 2019 - 06:49 AM, said:


It’s getting so very tiresome that violence against women is no big deal. It’s an everyday occurrence. It’s not considered a national emergency or problem. Life just goes on- except for the women impacted.




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