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#76 Ellie bean

Posted 11 September 2019 - 04:23 PM

I’m glad that despite being raised by an atheist and an agnostic, my parents taught me to be respectful and not just shut down conversations about religion or I would have missed out on lots of interesting conversations with my religious friends. They also let me go with friends to Sunday scripture, youth group, even church services, without blinking an eye. I’m still an atheist but I tjhink a happier one than if it was jammed down my throat.

#77 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 11 September 2019 - 04:29 PM

Quote

i have no qualms with singling out its failures and its quirks. it’s punching up - not down. i imagine - for example - Saudi atheists or secularists might have something to say about the niqab - and that’s their right and their fight. i support anyone who fights oppression.


I absolutely agree with that.  I also have no issue with calling out the institutions, and the 'white western christians' who are outspoken in their belief that their beliefs should influence the lives of everyone.  Or individuals who berrate others for their choices becuase it goes against their religious belief.  Happy for all of them to be called out for the intolerant bigots they are.

What I am not a fan of is the inherent blame that falls on people of faith (any faith) who are living within their faith, within their lives, and not trying to convert others, influence others, or otherwise use their faith or belief to control others.

#78 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 11 September 2019 - 04:38 PM

View PostRuf~Feral~es, on 11 September 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:




I absolutely agree with that.  I also have no issue with calling out the institutions, and the 'white western christians' who are outspoken in their belief that their beliefs should influence the lives of everyone.  Or individuals who berrate others for their choices becuase it goes against their religious belief.  Happy for all of them to be called out for the intolerant bigots they are.

What I am not a fan of is the inherent blame that falls on people of faith (any faith) who are living within their faith, within their lives, and not trying to convert others, influence others, or otherwise use their faith or belief to control others.

it’s a fine line i guess. i know many of us were responding to the off shoot (in the thread) about discussing it with kids - maybe quite young kids - who do tend to quite black and white, right or wrong thinking. so that can be tricky. people quietly going about their faith are fine, i have no issue with them. but when we open the dialogue (which i’m always happy to do..i love a good debate about religion) quite often (i have found...just my experience) is that i have to say at the outset - i simply don’t accept the premise of your question. and it goes from there. atheists do not believe in your god. any god. some religious people find that confronting, and they are affronted - and they think we are being rude. and disrespectful. but we’re not - we just don’t believe in god.

Edited by Lucrezia Borgia, 11 September 2019 - 04:39 PM.


#79 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 11 September 2019 - 04:49 PM

Quote

i simply don’t accept the premise of your question. and it goes from there. atheists do not believe in your god. any god. some religious people find that confronting, and they are affronted - and they think we are being rude. and disrespectful. but we’re not - we just don’t believe in god.

Yes, they are the worst - not only will they tell you that you are wrong to not believe in god, but they will also tell me that the way I believe in god is wrong too! There is only one way to heaven and its their way.  And if heaven is full of people like them, I think I'd prefer the other option.  (I don't even really know where I stand on heaven as it is!)
,
I don't think saying "I don't believe in God" is wrong.  Or "I don't believe in your god, but I do believe in mine".  it's a personal thing.   But I do think it's important to teach our kids that everyone is different, and it's ok to believe in different things - because believing in nothing is still a belief.  ETA - I get that to atheists it's not a belief, it's a truism.  Jsut as to the religious, their belief is true too

We should all be able to live with our beliefs intact - as long as we don't try to use them to influence others.  They have just as much right to believe in whatever it is.  Even if its an elephant with many arms, or a weird father/son/ghost mash-up.

Edited by Ruf~Feral~es, 11 September 2019 - 04:54 PM.


#80 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 11 September 2019 - 04:54 PM

View PostRuf~Feral~es, on 11 September 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:



Yes, they are the worst - not only will they tell you that you are wrong to not believe in god, but they will also tell me that the way I believe in god is wrong too!    There is only one way to heaven and its their way.  And if heaven is full of people like them, I think I'd prefer the other option.  (I don't even really know where I stand on heaven as it is!)
,
I don't think saying "I don't believe in God" is wrong.  Or "I don't believe in your god, but I do believe in mine".  it's a personal thing.   But I do think it's important to teach our kids that everyone is different, and it's ok to believe in different things - because believing in nothing is still a belief.  

you’re going to force me to say it! i don’t accept the premise......”the believing in nothing is still a belief” - i hear this quite often and i don’t really agree with it. but anyway...it doesn’t matter - i agree with you in general - everyone is different. my main gripe with religion (well, one of them, i have many) is that i think its divisive. it focuses on what divides us, not what unites us. we share a common humanity....i like to focus on that ....


#81 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 11 September 2019 - 04:57 PM

Quote

my main gripe with religion (well, one of them, i have many) is that i think its divisive. it focuses on what divides us, not what unites us. we share a common humanity....i like to focus on that ....

Haha!  

And my response to you would be - yes, I agree with this too.  Common humanity should be what unites us.  And it shouldn't be our different beliefs that divide us.  

And those who use religion, or lack of religion as a divider, are doing it wrong.

#82 aquarium2

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:10 PM

View PostRuf~Feral~es, on 11 September 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

and it's ok to believe in different things - because believing in nothing is still a belief.  ETA - I get that to atheists it's not a belief, it's a truism.  Jsut as to the religious, their belief is true too


And that's what I find offensive.

As an atheist I reject the notion of the super natural and of gods per se.  It doesn't mean I don't believe.

I believe in the universe, nature, human life, science and the theory of evolution.

You can't monopolise the word "belief".

#83 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:19 PM

Yeah, OK - I said that wrong.  It's not believing in 'nothing'.    That's not what I was trying to say,for want of a better word.

So take the word 'belief' out of it.  

Ultimately though - surely you don't expect that everyone has to think the way you do?  Even people who don't 'believe' in climate change have a right to that opinion - even though all the science points to the complete opposite.

IMO - it's what they do with that belief that matters.  And how they respond to others.

#84 BadCat

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:36 PM

Individual respect is one thing, and I'm cool with that.

But increasingly, we are asked to just shrug and walk away from people spouting religious dogma.  And I'm sorry, but I'm over it.  Ignoring this has brought the fundie crowd out in droves and they are making life as sh*tty for everyone else as they possibly can.

So if someone wants to discuss the details of their religion with me then I WILL give them my opinion.  If they don't like it then maybe they should keep their dogma to themselves.

#85 Mollyksy

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:37 PM

View PostAliasMater, on 11 September 2019 - 02:54 PM, said:



I find it intriguing that filling a child's head with stories about celestial kingdoms in the sky where people go if they are 'good' and grow wings, is somehow convienient.

Mine have always accepted the more scientific approach just fine -  that conciousness fades and we cease to exist, just as we were before we were born.. and we live on in the memories of those who knew and loved us.

We don't teach our kids platitudes either like 'better place now', or 'looking down upon us'. So burdensome.

I certainly didnt fill my sons head with any such thing. I was barely functioning from losing my mum suddenly and parenting a 3.5yo by myself. But thanks for your condescension. Yes, totally burdensome to have to explain death to a freaked out already highly anxious child.

I have a literal anxious child. He wanted to know exactly physically where Nan went to. Consciousness fading, ceasing to exist and before birth are abstract concepts few 3.5 year olds can comprehend. If yours can, kudos to you.

I figured telling him her charred remains are in Pops cupboard wasnt the best answer quite frankly. I wouldnt have chosen 'she is a star in the sky' or 'heaven' myself but others trying to be helpful did so I settled on the star as the path of least resistance and have given age appropriate explanations since. We've just started 'some people believe in heaven' and burial and cremation. And the notion of living in our memories.

He still sobs at night thinking about me suddenly dying.

I'm glad your explanations work for you but I found your reply offensive actually. It really upset me. I wanted to explain though just what was going on. The problem is you have these conversations usually when you are hurting yourself and we just do what we can and what our instincts tell us our kids can comprehend.

#86 Kallie88

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:38 PM

Look I have had, and still have, several friends that are religious. Christian in particular. I don't have a problem with them talking about their beliefs, in the god will point me in the right direction, god is watching over me variety. I don't have a problem if they want to say 'i believe God created everything etc.' In perfectly comfortable saying, that's cool but it's not what I believe. That's tolerance.
If anyone, even one of my friends, said, "if you don't believe in god you'll burn in hell" I would laugh in their face and flip them the bird. Not because I'm intolerant of religion but because that's an a**hole thing to say and I'll respond in kind. I have no problem if my children do the same. I would be very disappointed if they disparaged a person simply because they were religious, I would be 100% behind them if they reacted to an insulting religious statement

#87 Amica

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:46 PM

I can't help the way you have reacted to my post which, although thought provoked by yours, was more general and generic. This IS what parents tell children, heaven IS the default, and as a consequence is discussed by children as they norm.

Heaven has never been mentioned in my house apart from the times I have had to UNTELL my children of it's existence when it has come from someone else e.g school, other kids, other adults, THAT DAMN SCHOOL CHAPLAIN.

The alternative to heaven isn't that someone's 'charred remains are in the cupboard'. You have chosen to go with that to project your feelings on to me.

All I can say is that I am sorry you are grieving a loved one.

Edited by AliasMater, 11 September 2019 - 05:48 PM.


#88 purplekitty

Posted 11 September 2019 - 06:32 PM

My responses in the thread are a direct response to the minimisation that often has gone on in similar threads over the years to our suggestion that our children have been hurt and upset by what their religious friends have said to them.

The inference s that their feelings are lesser because it doesn't relate to the expression of a religious belief.
They are not.

My childrens feelings are not secondary to others.

We taught them to be considerate and empathetic but it seems it doesn't work both ways.

#89 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:10 PM

very true PK.

its the assumption (almost) that religion is the default. but no one was born a believer. we all have ideals and a code of behaviour, i guess, to which we aspire. that’s fine. but it’s the supernatural we take issue with.

there is ample evidence that a literal genesis does not match the physical world as it exists. ok - that’s fine, most religious people i know would agree with that and don’t even seek to argue that. but then doesn’t it all fall apart from there? christians can cherry pick but non christians cannot?

i’ve read the arguments from Aquinas ....he argues for a single spark...a push...that’s fine. i mean in the context of writing in the mid 1200’s (thereabouts) that’s fine. but none of his logic gives a compelling argument for virgin birth, resurrection, miracles....if jesus is “of the same substance as god” then there can’t  have been a resurrection...he cannot have died because god can’t die....it goes round in circles and doesn’t make any sense...and it seems so unnecessary to try to justify and enforce this twisted logic to spread the message .....i don’t get why there has to be this sense of the “divine” - the core philosophy is fine....but it’s lost its way in the dogmatic defences it’s had to erect in order to keep arguing it is the truth in the face of compelling scientific evidence that it is not.


#90 JoanJett

Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:28 PM

View PostLucrezia Borgia, on 11 September 2019 - 03:53 PM, said:



most (most) of whom are white western christians...

to answer your question - no. a muslim woman wearing a niqab - or someone wearing a turban is an expression of their culture as well as their religion. in the context of australia i think it’s where religion/culture and racism intersect so no - my kids do not and would not react to a muslim, Hindu etc in that way. my rejection of religion is a complete rejection of the christian faith i was bought up in. it’s the dominant faith here in australia and i have no qualms with singling out its failures and its quirks. it’s punching up - not down. i imagine - for example - Saudi atheists or secularists might have something to say about the niqab - and that’s their right and their fight. i support anyone who fights oppression.


#91 JoanJett

Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:34 PM

View PostBadCat, on 10 September 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:



Not to me.

I find the notion of eternal life quite horrendous actually.





Religion is generally  taught to children.  If you do a good enough job of indoctrinating the child, no amount of other learning is going to shake that faith if they don't want to question it.

Some of the smartest people I know go through all sorts of convolutions to reconcile evolution with creationism so they can somehow believe in both.


#92 Grinchette

Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:25 AM

View PostKallie88, on 11 September 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

If anyone, even one of my friends, said, "if you don't believe in god you'll burn in hell" I would laugh in their face and flip them the bird. Not because I'm intolerant of religion but because that's an a**hole thing to say and I'll respond in kind. I

I once sat next to a guy for 2 HOURS sprouting that bullsh*t. Unfortunately I was stuck on train from the Central Coast to Sydney that was completely full and I had absolutely nowhere to go and for some reason he picked me to convert (I was about 20 so an easy target I guess). He couldn't come to terms that Buddhists don't want to go to Heaven.  Yep, believe it exists but that's not what we aim for.  Oh and my belief that any Tom, d*ck or Harry could enter heaven as long as they led a good life WITHOUT believing in God completely blew his mind.  He was so arrogant, angry and belittling that other passengers were either laughing at my "...well if your God loves everyone why doesn't he love gays too...", and telling him to shut up when he kept harping on about "...if you don't go to heaven you'll end up in...", well you know where.  I can't convey just how flabbergasted he was that SOMEONE, ANYONE would NOT want to go to heaven.

Edited by Gumbette, 12 September 2019 - 10:26 AM.


#93 IamtheMumma

Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:17 AM

https://www.reddit.c...sydney_morning/


Entitlement in its pure form.  Someone posted the video in a different thread earlier in the year.

#94 Grinchette

Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:36 AM

^^ Too funny!  And close to home.   Everyone on the the train actually applauded when my travel mate alighted at Hornsby!

Edited by Gumbette, 12 September 2019 - 11:36 AM.


#95 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 12 September 2019 - 12:52 PM

View PostIamtheMumma, on 12 September 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

https://www.reddit.c...sydney_morning/


Entitlement in its pure form.  Someone posted the video in a different thread earlier in the year.

This is what I find so abhorrent in some areas of Christianity - the total arrogance of the righteous.  And I suppose that is what filters through to the children that some of you have come across.  Belief and passion are one thing.  Disrespecting others rights and entitlement - even to a peaceful train journey, are quite another.

The Baptist neighbour I had who was a volunteer scripture teacher was like that.  My belief in my god was still wrong, because I didn't believe the way she did.  We had some great (and respectful) debates about how 'my' god didn't have a problem with homosexuality, prostitution, sex outside marriage. Whilst I send my kids to a semi-religious school and happily encourage them to participate in their curriculum based RE classes, I would never allow them to be preached to by her or anyone else like her.

She also used many of the same lines as that guy "It's because I love you, it's because I care for your soul."  Worry about your own soul, buddy, and leave mine to me.

The type of people we have in our Government who put their beliefs above others, those who travel overseas to convert people away from their own gods and beliefs, those that protest outside abortion clinics, or idiots like this on the train - are all worthy of nothing but contempt.

I would like to point out again though - that pretty much every person I know who has a belief system of some sort, does not act in this way.  They are the loud minority.  And I am as scared as the rest of you that people like that are trying to become more powerful in our society.  Religion should always be a personal thing.

Edited by Ruf~Feral~es, 12 September 2019 - 12:54 PM.


#96 kimasa

Posted 12 September 2019 - 05:00 PM

Both DH and I are staunch atheists.

I do the "some people believe" but as DD has gotten older she has begun to question why. Why does (boy in her class) tell others that they're going to hell for not going to church, why does he believe that. So yeah, we have talked about indoctrination, we have talked about the ways in which religion has been tied to politics for centuries, we talked about how sometimes when people don't know things they develop theories. And yes we have talked about how no one is going to a place of hellfire and brimstone for ongoing torture because they don't go to this kid's church, and how even if it's something he believes, because it is not a proven fact it is very wrong for him to threaten people with it.

I just feel like it's one of those things with kids where the accountability for tolerance are only held with one side. It's like Santa, those who don't believe absolutely must not spoil it for others, but no one tells the kids who do believe not to taunt the Muslim or Jewish kid for being on the naughty list.

#97 lizzzard

Posted 12 September 2019 - 06:11 PM

This thread is very enlightening for me (no pun intended 😋). Yet again I’m struck by how strange my experience of living in inner Sydney is from elsewhere in Australia... my kids never encountered any other kids at kindy talking about hell, fire or brimstone...I rarely hear anyone talking about religion or faith at all - in fact am embarrassed to talk about anything remotely faith related in real life except to my closest friends...it just seems a very unacceptable topic of conversation in my circles (probably more in line with the opinions expressed in this thread). I did see some of those..ahem...interesting...’sidewalk preachers’ in the city the other day. I wondered how on earth they keep up the non-stop monologue 🤔🤣 but do people really listen to what they’re saying and get offended by it? It goes in the same camp as any other slightly strange spruiker to me - in one ear and out the other. I’m not debating the impact Christianity has had on systemic elements of Australian society but culturally I don’t experience it nearly as much as some others in this thread seem to. Or maybe I’m living in la-la land as usual....

#98 Bigbaubles

Posted 12 September 2019 - 06:32 PM

View PostRuf~Feral~es, on 12 September 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

Religion should always be a personal thing.

It should, but quite often it's not.

I don't get anyone knocking on my door to promote atheism. I don't get given random pamphlets by atheists. I get bombarded with everyone's variation of Christianity left right and centre.
The smug 'oh we don't believe in Santa, we only celebrate the true meaning of Christmas' whenever Santa or anything Christmas related comes up.

Our family friends who are Christian, know that I am not Christian, because when they asked what church I go to, I told them I don't go to one. However the bring up how I really must come to their church because it's different (but they also preach strongly against homophobia.. and I have many gay friends) and then keep inviting me to their prayer circles etc.. even though i've made it pretty clear my views.

I have less issues with friends that are Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim etc. as they seem to be open and tolerant.

#99 got my tinsel on

Posted 12 September 2019 - 07:46 PM

View PostDrat, on 12 September 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

It should, but quite often it's not.

I don't get anyone knocking on my door to promote atheism. I don't get given random pamphlets by atheists. I get bombarded with everyone's variation of Christianity left right and centre.
The smug 'oh we don't believe in Santa, we only celebrate the true meaning of Christmas' whenever Santa or anything Christmas related comes up.

Our family friends who are Christian, know that I am not Christian, because when they asked what church I go to, I told them I don't go to one. However the bring up how I really must come to their church because it's different (but they also preach strongly against homophobia.. and I have many gay friends) and then keep inviting me to their prayer circles etc.. even though i've made it pretty clear my views.

I have less issues with friends that are Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim etc. as they seem to be open and tolerant.

Yes, the old 'what church do you go to?' question.

Edited by gettin my fance on, 12 September 2019 - 07:47 PM.


#100 SeaPrincess

Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:07 PM

View PostDrat, on 12 September 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

I get bombarded with everyone's variation of Christianity left right and centre.

Where? This is what I don’t get. Other than the occasional doorknockers and a Jehovah’s Witness child that I looked after on summer camp in Canada and brought a bunch of propaganda flyers to camp, I can’t think of any everyday time or place where people have tried to convert me to their belief system.




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