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Difference between catholic, high Anglican, low Anglican etc.


95 replies to this topic

#26 Riotproof

Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:49 PM

The bible was featured a lot, but mostly seemed to be opinions of such, a little politicising.

#27 Riotproof

Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:09 PM

I don’t think they do all believe the same thing. And the beliefs about god, Jesus, and others are almost irrelevant.
I’m kind of more interested in how they think about people on the outside.

#28 PhillipaCrawford

Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:49 PM

Well Ivy Ivy two of our priests were debating the whole concept of the virgin birth just prior to Christmas so really you don't know of what you speak.

I'm Anglican,  attended church in Wollongong in the 70's all bible believing stuff, one path to salvation and all others were dammed including Catholics.
The service was simple robes, no candles or incense etc and communion once a month.

My church in Melbourne - women priest(s), candles, incense, organs and 2 communion services each Sunday. Gay organist for a while and very progressive; the bible needs to be read in context - although not as good as Fr. Rod, still lots of social justice.

#29 Expelliarmus

Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:49 PM

View PostIvy Ivy, on 29 December 2019 - 09:00 PM, said:

Ceremony differences are all just window dressing.

At base, they believe the same things - a person called Jesus lived and was the son of God, born to a virgin, performed miracles, died and then came back to life, and this means God gave his son for humans, though it's not clear why this sacrifice had to happen or how one person being killed absolves all others of sin.
For those who do believe however, they generally understand why the sacrifice had to happen. It may be illogical for you and indeed other people but there are those of us who do have an understanding.

RP, Datrys has talked about High Anglican before - she might have some insights too.

Edited by Expelliarmus, 29 December 2019 - 09:50 PM.


#30 Riotproof

Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:55 PM

I hope she will reply. I thought about pming her but decided that wasn’t fair.



#31 RichardParker

Posted 29 December 2019 - 11:55 PM

Yes, intelligent thought, someone should really have suggested that to Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and the rest of those ignoramuses (ignorami?).

OP, there are some key differences in doctrine between Catholics and Anglicans (the supremacy of the Pope in Rome, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the number of Sacraments). There are also differences of “semi-doctrinal” practices such as the ordination of women, married priests for e.g.  we used to kill each other over these differences but now most people struggle to even name them.

Then there are also huge variations in culture and communities according to who the minister is, who runs the music, personalities in the congregation etc etc, this if for both Catholics and Anglicans.  .
“High Anglican” usually means that the people in that church believe that Christ is really present (in some way) in Holy Communion. This has the effect of making the ceremony around Holy Communion much more solemn.  The congregants are often more conservative and traditional in their views around ancillary moral issues.

In a “low” Anglican service, people tend to believe that the bread and wine are just symbols of Christ’s body and blood, not the real deal.  The low Anglican services are therefore often a lot more casual, the music is more modern, the congregants are more woke. They can also be quite happy clappy, American-style evangelical (although these congregations are often, funnily enough, quite morally conservative - they play rock music but don’t approve of practicing gays or premarital sex.

Clear as mud?

Edited by RichardParker, 30 December 2019 - 12:03 AM.


#32 RichardParker

Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:47 AM

View PostLucrezia Bauble, on 29 December 2019 - 07:16 PM, said:

i find the whole clappy evangelical “ tent revival” brand of christianity really repugnant. part of the appeal of Mass surely is an appeal to the senses - sight, sound even smell with the incense - the beautiful old buildings with their spires reaching to the heavens, their domes mirroring the cosmos and the stained glass windows together with the heady smell of incense - i don’t know why you would want to mess with that. but those modern concrete or  blonde brick churches  leave me cold - and, no doubt, the message inside them is even worse.

Completely agree, there’s whole thesis written in the philosophy and theology of the architecture of churches, and how the “pointy arches” era was the summit of western church culture, beauty, proportion, connection etc. Pugin was the dude that came to Australia and designed many of the early Churches that were built here during that era- there was an exhibition of his work at the National Library in Canberra that put it all together much more eloquently than I can.

There’s a school of thought that the decline in (Catholic) church attendance is because* we’ve completely disconnected ourselves from all of that beauty and built these ugly, pseudo-egalitarian concrete monstrosities that look like prisons, and instead of directing our sights toward God and the beauty, and mathematical precision of creation- like we do in a Cathedral built in the heart of Christian Mysticism- and hear music tumbling through the cycle of fifths, and participate in a mass in Latin, the tradition and language  of which is a thousand years or more old - instead, today, we look at each other singing bad 90’s Christian Power ballads about how awesome we are that we love God, and quickly become disillusioned.  No ****ing wonder.  I went to a Latin Mass (with all the bells and whistles) the other day and it was full- not a Christmas service, just an ordinary Sunday service and it was packed - it’s the only Catholic mass I’ve been to where the congregation is growing.

*Also, the paedophiles.

Edited by RichardParker, 30 December 2019 - 12:55 AM.


#33 Crazyone26989

Posted 30 December 2019 - 06:21 AM

I once went to a Sydney Anglican wedding....very similar to what you describe Riotproof. Never again.

#34 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 30 December 2019 - 06:41 AM

sydney anglican weddings can also have the wife (to be) vowing to obey or submit to her husband. not all of them do, i know- but i’ve been to a few where that vow was made. i just can’t fathom how in this day and age a woman would choose to say that. and i’ve read the “justification” for this, such as it is...there was some dreary article written by an anglican priest where he made some lame comparison to a tango or something “the man leads and the wife follows”. whatever. i still can not fathom a modern woman, in Australia, uttering that sentence.


#35 Crazyone26989

Posted 30 December 2019 - 06:45 AM

View PostLucrezia Bauble, on 30 December 2019 - 06:41 AM, said:

sydney anglican weddings can also have the wife (to be) vowing to obey or submit to her husband. not all of them do, i know- but i’ve been to a few where that vow was made. i just can’t fathom how in this day and age a woman would choose to say that. and i’ve read the “justification” for this, such as it is...there was some dreary article written by an anglican priest where he made some lame comparison to a tango or something “the man leads and the wife follows”. whatever. i still can not fathom a modern woman, in Australia, uttering that sentence.

Yes this is what happened at the wedding I went to. The whole service was very focused on the woman submitting to the man. The brides’ parents also spoke at length about it.

#36 luke's mummu

Posted 30 December 2019 - 07:00 AM

We had a sydney Anglican wedding 16 years ago and both promised to “ love and honour”. So it’s not everywhere.

#37 Babetty

Posted 30 December 2019 - 08:14 AM

View PostRichardParker, on 29 December 2019 - 11:55 PM, said:


“High Anglican” usually means that the people in that church believe that Christ is really present (in some way) in Holy Communion. This has the effect of making the ceremony around Holy Communion much more solemn.  The congregants are often more conservative and traditional in their views around ancillary moral issues.

In a “low” Anglican service, people tend to believe that the bread and wine are just symbols of Christ’s body and blood, not the real deal.  The low Anglican services are therefore often a lot more casual, the music is more modern, the congregants are more woke. They can also be quite happy clappy, American-style evangelical (although these congregations are often, funnily enough, quite morally conservative - they play rock music but don’t approve of practicing gays or premarital sex.

Clear as mud?

And just to add to the confusion, many more socially progressive Anglican congregations (generally outside Sydney, I'm mostly familiar with Brisbane and Canberra / Goulburn dioceses) can adhere to the traditional forms of workshop - communion every Sunday, traditional hymns, robes, candela etc - so the external trappings of worship are traditional but the theology very liberal. Enmore parish in Sydney used to be like this, not sure if it still is.

#38 jayskette

Posted 30 December 2019 - 08:23 AM

there are "branches" of Anglican, which is practically all the others barring orthodox and catholic. eg uniting, presbyterians, Baptist... Mormonism came as a split from the Anglican beliefs. evagenical TV stuff and cults came from a revert back to fundamentalist and Amish like beliefs.

high Anglican is what you see the british royals do, as queen is still head of the church. besides ability to divorce, pretty much a lot are still similar to Catholics without the saints. the major cathedrals in the capital cities are still high Anglican.

Edited by jayskette, 30 December 2019 - 08:25 AM.


#39 Babetty

Posted 30 December 2019 - 08:36 AM

View Postjayskette, on 30 December 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

there are "branches" of Anglican, which is practically all the others barring orthodox and catholic. eg uniting, presbyterians, Baptist... Mormonism came as a split from the Anglican beliefs. evagenical TV stuff and cults came from a revert back to fundamentalist and Amish like beliefs.

high Anglican is what you see the british royals do, as queen is still head of the church. besides ability to divorce, pretty much a lot are still similar to Catholics without the saints. the major cathedrals in the capital cities are still high Anglican.

High and low Anglican are generally used as descriptors within the single Anglican church - while there is no Pope and minimal central control, there is still a global organisational structure known as the worldwide Anglican communion.

Uniting, Presbyterian etc are separate churches. Some, particularly those with a German background, broke away from the Catholic church completely separately to the formation of the Anglican church so regarding them as Anglican is like regarding the Anglican church as Catholic, simply because of a common ancestry.

#40 EsmeLennox

Posted 30 December 2019 - 09:50 AM

Crazyone26989 said:

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Yes this is what happened at the wedding I went to. The whole service was very focused on the woman submitting to the man. The brides’ parents also spoke at length about it.

Ewwww.

I thought this kind of thing was largely gone from mainstream religious marriages. I know my mother caused a bit of a flurry in the early 60s for refusing to include the word ‘obey’ in her wedding vows, and I’ve never attended a wedding service where I’ve heard it used.

Edited by EsmeLennox, 30 December 2019 - 09:52 AM.


#41 gruidae

Posted 30 December 2019 - 09:52 AM

Both Anglican and Catholicism can vary somewhat from parish to parish, though when Catholicism was under Pell the some of the more liberal parishes/priests were excommunicated.The St Mary's congregations in both Sydney and Brisbane had radical change back to orthodoxy when before they had strong Catholic worker movement influence.
The Anglicans still swing wildly - you have Glen Davies in Sydney who's a Bible literalist, then you have Rod Bower in Gosford who's far more about social justice and being decent to your fellows humans.
.
In terms of the American protestant religions most of them came from the puritan movement originally  - mostly offshoots/descendants of Calvinism, Lutheranism and the Anabaptists (Amish and Mennonites). So not really anything to do with Anglican, they're a totally different branch of the religions which came out of the reformation

#42 Babetty

Posted 30 December 2019 - 10:55 AM

View PostEsmeLennox, on 30 December 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:



Ewwww.

I thought this kind of thing was largely gone from mainstream religious marriages. I know my mother caused a bit of a flurry in the early 60s for refusing to include the word ‘obey’ in her wedding vows, and I’ve never attended a wedding service where I’ve heard it used.

Eeeew from me to.

My father (an Anglican priest) made it clear he would not give me away when I got married, even if I wanted him to (which I didn't).

My atheist in laws are far, far more socially conservative than my very religious parents! (My mother is an Anglican priest too).

#43 gruidae

Posted 30 December 2019 - 11:01 AM

View Postjayskette, on 30 December 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

there are "branches" of Anglican, which is practically all the others barring orthodox and catholic. eg uniting, presbyterians, Baptist... Mormonism came as a split from the Anglican beliefs. evagenical TV stuff and cults came from a revert back to fundamentalist and Amish like beliefs.



Uniting came from Anglican, the others not so much. The  Calvinists  were an offshoot of Lutheranism and have strong underpinnings in many of the American protestant religions. There's still various Calvinist/Reformed churches about, especially amongst the South African migrant community who are predominantly Dutch Calvinist.

They're notable for believing in the concept of ""the elect"" i.e that you are born into the correct family/chosen by god to be reformed, This is where the Pentecostal beliefs around prosperity gospel come from.  Material success is an indication of being part of the elect, therefore your family has been chosen by God and is therefore more Godly than those who struggle materially. Which is why someone like Morrison has so little concern for the poor and bushfire victims. Having your house burn down is surely a sign you are not part of the elect..Mormonism has similar underpinnings combined with some of the Anabaptist puritanism (no drinking, tea or coffee etc).

It's also why so many Americans believe their country has a mandate to lead the world/ their leaders are chosen by God. As far as they're concerned, they are the elect.

Then there are the straight up puritans who were a cluster of religions which descended from the Anabaptist movement- also originally from Lutheranism The Amish, Mennonites and Hutterites were the main 3 who went to ""The New World"" (USA and Canada) to escape persecution due to thier pacifist stances. The Baptists come from these though they've rejected the pacifism.

Alongside the pacifism was a general rejection of idolatory . Therefore, the edicts against having pictures hung in the home, use of farming technology, any entertainment aside from the work you do to make money etc. It's also why their offshoots (Baptists, SDA and again Mormons) have edicts against dirnking, secular music, dancing, grape juice instead of wine for communion and so on. The Baptist, however have rejected the concept of the elect and therefore anyone can be "saved by grace", which is why it's a popular choice for African Americans.

The modesty doctrine is also heavily infused into these branches, which falls rather heavily on the women and girls to be held responsible for maintaining men's chasteness. We can thank these beliefs for giving us rape culture. I suspect it's also why so many American evangelical leaders become sex offenders.

These roots are why American concepts of Christianity are so very different from what was mainstream in Australia in many of our childhoods, where Catholicism and C of E were the majority religions.

I'm none too happy of the recent influx of American protestantism, in particular their monetary donations to one of the major political parties, which is then obliged to legislate according to their wishes.. I think they're also encouraging Catholicism back to pre Vatican 2 times and sections of the Anglicans as well.

*edited for clarity and because I can't type

Edited by gruidae, 30 December 2019 - 11:13 AM.


#44 gruidae

Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:06 PM

oops. I didn't realise this was in the faith and religion section, just navigated here from the "We are discussing"" list. Apologies is anything I've written is TMI or too opinionated :shrug:

#45 born.a.girl

Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:10 PM

View PostEsmeLennox, on 30 December 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

Ewwww.

I thought this kind of thing was largely gone from mainstream religious marriages. I know my mother caused a bit of a flurry in the early 60s for refusing to include the word ‘obey’ in her wedding vows, and I’ve never attended a wedding service where I’ve heard it used.


You'd be surprised! Both weddings couples were only mid twenties, too.

#46 purplekitty

Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:17 PM

I follow some ultra conservative Catholics on Twitter.

Recently,they have been enraged by what they see as pagan idolatry,pantheism and their worship by the Pope and Vatican.
They want to return to pre-Vatican 2 and are vehemently anti choice, pro-Trump,pro Israel Folau,anti Freemasonry,the list goes on.

I imagine the DLP would have represented their interests once but they now have only the LNP.

Bob Santamaria doesn't look so bad anymore.

#47 gruidae

Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:57 PM

^^ They wouldn't be from Toowoomba by any chance?

#48 purplekitty

Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:59 PM

View Postgruidae, on 30 December 2019 - 12:57 PM, said:

^^ They wouldn't be from Toowoomba by any chance?
:) One is.

#49 RichardParker

Posted 30 December 2019 - 01:08 PM

Lol. I might have met those people- I went to Latin Mass for years with those types. I actually much prefer them to the Happy Clappers, because at least they’re clear and consistent. I couldn’t stay in the community though, because I married a divorcee and we’ve only had two kids....

Adore Gregorian Chant and early polyphony, though- these communities are at least keeping that music alive.

#50 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 30 December 2019 - 01:48 PM

i’m loosely connected (via cousins) with the (or i should say “an”) anglican community in sydney’s Shire (Scotty from Marketing’s country) - all quiet pious - women dress “modestly” but Stepford Wife modestly - all very pretty, makeup is worn (but nothing edgy - oh god no. all very conventional) the men all have beards in the “Hot Jesus” tradition. and they’re young - god they’re all so young, married of course - because they want to have sex. we’re talking 21, 22. no kids yet - i would say contraception is a thing. but these young women are like playing dress ups. can’t quite put my finger on it, but being round them is like they’re role playing. it doesn’t seem quite genuine.




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