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Difference between catholic, high Anglican, low Anglican etc.


95 replies to this topic

#76 seayork2002

Posted 01 January 2020 - 12:01 PM

View PostAnonforthistime, on 01 January 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

Sorry riotproof. Your post wasn’t the issue. I thought it was a good question and I was interested in the responses having not had much exposure to high/low Anglican or catholic practices.
It was the post from IvyIvy that I had issue with.
I think if your post had been in what do
You think or miscellaneous, then it’s a free for all but still should be respectful. When questions are posted in a faith section I assumed that meant it was a section where people of different faiths could discuss their faith.

The good and bad of religion should be able to be discussed even in the faith/religion section

#77 MrsCee

Posted 01 January 2020 - 12:35 PM

Expelliarmus said:

1577840951[/url]' post='18538097']
I have found EB to be less and less tolerant of Christian belief and sentiment. But I think the world in general is as well so perhaps not so surprising?

I've found it to be downright hostile.

Mention Baptism, Communion, Confirmation or sending your child to a Catholic school and gird your loins.

IMO I think a lot of people who don’t attend church of any faith have preconceived ideas which are outdated in some instances and just downright wrong in others.

We are part of our local Catholic Church and attend Mass regularly. I’ve tried before to try and explain how tolerant, giving and socially aware our church is but people don’t want to listen.

They haven’t been inside a church in eons but still think they know what happens. I really believe some of it comes from a place of ignorance and people don’t want to know otherwise.

Edited by MrsCee, 01 January 2020 - 12:53 PM.


#78 IamtheMumma

Posted 01 January 2020 - 12:42 PM

EB has a mixed selection of visitors. People who have never had anything to do with religion to clergy. Experiences can be varied and it is only in the last decade that the general public has been allowed to talk about the atrocities that occurred under the guise of religion. Previously the accepted convention that calling religious negatives out was not allowed yet believers were allowed to do whatever they wanted. This one way street has been stopped and society is changing to show more equality.

We have members who were abused by clergy, members who have lost family members to suicide due to abuse and we have members who are in same sex relationships (who recently had to see the abusive vitriol during the marriage equality referendum).

Some people come in from the 'We are discussing.." link and don't realise until later that it is this forum. Others may feel they have something to contribute. I'm an atheist. I don't often post in here but this topic made me curious. I was raised in a Christian household (Anglican, Methodist, Catholic and Uniting). I've never heard of high/low Anglican so that was new. I asked my Mum and she thinks she's heard of it before but she had to really think hard to remember it and doesn't think its common (this thread would suggest otherwise).

Anyway, lots of people come here with various experiences and beliefs. If you need a completely safe environment where no one will ever disagree with you, then yes EB isn't for you. The internet and life also isn't for you because nowhere is 100% safe. Most people respect the forum and don't post. I suspect the quoted poster will check in the future because she posted in another thread and apologised as she hadn't realised what forum it was in.

#79 seayork2002

Posted 01 January 2020 - 12:54 PM

View PostMrsCee, on 01 January 2020 - 12:35 PM, said:



I've found it to be downright hostile.

Mention Baptism, Communion, Conformation or sending your child to a Catholic school and gird your loins.

IMO I think a lot of people who don’t attend church of any faith have preconceived ideas which are outdated in some instances and just downright wrong in others.

We are part of our local Catholic Church and attend Mass regularly. I’ve tried before to try and explain how tolerant, giving and socially aware our church is but people don’t want to listen.

They haven’t been inside a church in eons but still think they know what happens. I really believe some of it comes from a place of ignorance and people don’t want to know otherwise.

So your Catholic church you go to accepts non married couples, abortion same-sex marriage, will not tolerate covering up child abuse and will totally except people the way they are then that is great, it is good to hear and yes it would be great to hear of my churches and other faiths that are just as tolerant and welcoming of every one

#80 Expelliarmus

Posted 01 January 2020 - 12:59 PM

View PostMrsCee, on 01 January 2020 - 12:35 PM, said:



I've found it to be downright hostile.

Mention Baptism, Communion, Conformation or sending your child to a Catholic school and gird your loins.

IMO I think a lot of people who don’t attend church of any faith have preconceived ideas which are outdated in some instances and just downright wrong in others.

We are part of our local Catholic Church and attend Mass regularly. I’ve tried before to try and explain how tolerant, giving and socially aware our church is but people don’t want to listen.

They haven’t been inside a church in eons but still think they know what happens. I really believe some of it comes from a place of ignorance and people don’t want to know otherwise.
On the contrary I think many posters have been there and have had an awful experience and this is why they feel the way they do about churches.

Those of us attending good Christian congregations and without any experience of the abuses others experience are possibly very lucky to have escaped.

No doubt some of it is ignorance but I think a lot of people have had very traumatic and difficult experiences. A friend recently stopped attending and has become very negative towards the church I attend. We attended the same congregation for several years and yet she has had some very negative experiences. I have never experienced anything like she has and frankly don’t understand how it possibly happened because I’ve never experienced it. She is not ignorant at all. She has just had different experiences over the years and whatever happened caused it all to come to a head.

If EB is hostile to Christianity then I think people have their reasons. This will probably make it difficult for those of us who believe but people have a right to respond to their experiences. I do wonder sometimes whether or not to respond to incorrect information. Occasionally I do and I hope I do so with understanding that their journey has been different. I hope people affected receive healing and compassion through difficulties and trauma. I consider myself supremely lucky to still be able to worship and believe without these sorts of experiences.

#81 Mmmcheese

Posted 01 January 2020 - 01:11 PM

View PostMrsCee, on 01 January 2020 - 12:35 PM, said:



I've found it to be downright hostile.

Mention Baptism, Communion, Confirmation or sending your child to a Catholic school and gird your loins.

IMO I think a lot of people who don’t attend church of any faith have preconceived ideas which are outdated in some instances and just downright wrong in others.

We are part of our local Catholic Church and attend Mass regularly. I’ve tried before to try and explain how tolerant, giving and socially aware our church is but people don’t want to listen.

They haven’t been inside a church in eons but still think they know what happens. I really believe some of it comes from a place of ignorance and people don’t want to know otherwise.

This is the kind of comment that angers me. I was reading along quite interested, but then this. The reason people feel searing anger toward the Catholic church in particular, is not because of ignorance. The denial of the very valid reasons people have feeds the sense of absolute burning fury I feel at the injustice of the way those who were abused were treated and continue to be treated. Dismissing critics as ignorant is arrogant at best.

ETA. I do think ivyivy's post is out of line in this area of the forum.

Edited by Mmmcheese, 01 January 2020 - 02:14 PM.


#82 MrsCee

Posted 01 January 2020 - 01:14 PM

I do respect that others have different experiences to my own and I’m very, very sorry for what may have happened to others.

I’ll leave it at that and apologise for any offence caused.

#83 purplekitty

Posted 01 January 2020 - 01:35 PM

Trying to silence those who have been abused is yet another violation.

Many of those who express very strong opinions on EB about religion have been victims personally.

#84 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 01 January 2020 - 02:39 PM

if you constantly need your faith validated, if you are constantly on the defensive about your faith and if you run off crying to the Mods every time there is a criticism of your faith then, well, maybe you need to reassess your faith? nothing should be immune from criticism. nothing. even “not nice” criticism. i thought Ivy Ivy’s post was fine.


#85 Ellie bean

Posted 01 January 2020 - 02:44 PM

I think criticisms of institutions are fine, I have seen in this forum comments about “believing in sky fairies” and that sort of thing in this subforum and I do think that’s really inappropriate here. And I’m as atheist as they come.

#86 JinksNewton

Posted 01 January 2020 - 03:17 PM

View PostLucrezia Bauble, on 01 January 2020 - 02:39 PM, said:

if you constantly need your faith validated, if you are constantly on the defensive about your faith and if you run off crying to the Mods every time there is a criticism of your faith then, well, maybe you need to reassess your faith? nothing should be immune from criticism. nothing. even “not nice” criticism. i thought Ivy Ivy’s post was fine.
Not in this subforum. In General or What Do You Think, sure. It's the Faith and Spirituality section . Would you think it was ok for her to come into a prayer request thread and say things too?

#87 Lucrezia Bauble

Posted 01 January 2020 - 03:38 PM

i wouldn’t have a problem with that - but people come into threads sometimes from “we are discussing” - she may not have known.


#88 got my tinsel on

Posted 01 January 2020 - 03:56 PM

Unlike the Relationships forum, Faith & Religion is not a 'protected' forum on EB, and shows up on the 'We are discussing...' list, it is inevitable that members with other views will contribute.  Maybe lobby to have it's status changed so that it's not showing up on the list.

Ultimately IvyIvy is right.  The difference between high and low Anglican is window dressing.  They are the same faith 'performed' differently for different audiences.  Why do people of faith join one congregation over another of the same faith?  Maybe because it is the closest to them geographically, but in many cases it is because what the service offers them is a reflection of their own faith and validation of how they believe one should live and practise their faith.  'Brimstoner' priests tend not to have a congregation of moderates/progressives and vice versa.  Like attracts like.

With a number of religions espousing that theirs is the one true god/religion, either only one of them is correct or they are all wrong.

#89 lucky 2

Posted 01 January 2020 - 04:37 PM

Hello,

I have removed a post that insulted Christians personally, as well as some responses.
This is a protected sub-forum as explained in the pinned thread.

Kind regards,

lucky 2

#90 Datrys

Posted 01 January 2020 - 05:09 PM

View Postseayork2002, on 01 January 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

The good and bad of religion should be able to be discussed even in the faith/religion section

I agree, but I think critical discussion is one thing (and essential for believers and practitioners of faith to engage in!); personal attacks on people of faith is another.  That shouldn't be okay anywhere on EB, but it gets cut a lot of slack in other sections.  

View Postgot my tinsel on, on 01 January 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Ultimately IvyIvy is right.  The difference between high and low Anglican is window dressing.  They are the same faith 'performed' differently for different audiences.  

I don't think it's quite that simple.  There are differences of belief and practice which sit underneath the high/low (or catholic/evangelical) divide.  It's more complex than superficial differences in ceremonial.

I think fundamentally, the two sides would give you very different answers to the two questions:

- How should we read, understand and apply Scripture?

and

- How do we understand our relationship with God (both from God's side, and from ours)?

And those different answers then play out across all sorts of issues, from the superficial (like vestments) to the profound (like same-sex marriage).

#91 tinselfoil hat

Posted 01 January 2020 - 08:18 PM

Just wanted to add my two cents here because the reasons for the style differences can be hard to understand. Conservative style often goes with liberal theology and less formal style often goes with conservative theology, which on the surface of it doesn’t make sense.

Each denomination believes that we are saved by God’s grace. The pertinent question is how do we access this grace? Conservative theology would state that it is through faith in God alone, and this necessitates that the rituals are less important. Catholics and to a lesser degree others (perhaps this is where high anglicans fit) see that we receive grace through faith but that we also receive grace through the church. So for instance, eating and drinking the actual body and blood of Jesus through communion. You can see how this theological differences effects style, by emphasising what is important to that congregation.

#92 RichardParker

Posted 02 January 2020 - 07:51 PM

Yeah this is why I took a break from EB too. Happy to be challenged, criticised, whatever. Not happy to have to apologise for existing.

#93 Riotproof

Posted 02 January 2020 - 08:44 PM

View PostDatrys, on 01 January 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

I agree, but I think critical discussion is one thing (and essential for believers and practitioners of faith to engage in!); personal attacks on people of faith is another.  That shouldn't be okay anywhere on EB, but it gets cut a lot of slack in other sections.  



I don't think it's quite that simple.  There are differences of belief and practice which sit underneath the high/low (or catholic/evangelical) divide.  It's more complex than superficial differences in ceremonial.

I think fundamentally, the two sides would give you very different answers to the two questions:

- How should we read, understand and apply Scripture?

and

- How do we understand our relationship with God (both from God's side, and from ours)?

And those different answers then play out across all sorts of issues, from the superficial (like vestments) to the profound (like same-sex marriage).

i feel like the church you describe in your posts fits pretty closely to what I grew up with. There are obvious differences around communion, and Catholics do have a higher regard for Mary, but essentially the message is very similar.

I felt like the name Christ was used almost flippantly in the service I attended. It didn’t feel like he was there at all.
And what has really shaken me was I thought I was an atheist, so I don’t understand why I felt so strongly about this travesty.

#94 Datrys

Posted 03 January 2020 - 07:52 AM

Just because you've left church behind doesn't mean you don't have strong feelings about it.  It was a big part of your life.

And I think that's perfectly okay, really.

#95 katpaws

Posted 06 January 2020 - 12:42 PM

The Anglican Church does have (spiritual) leader, like the Pope and the Catholic Church - The Archbishop of Canterbury. The Queen (or reigning monarch of the Commonwealth) is the Head of the Church of England or Supreme Governor.

I grew up with the Anglican Church (Brisbane) until i was 16 and in the 80s (I was even a Sunday School teacher). If i ever returned to a Christian Church it would be to an Anglican one.

I credit the Anglican Church for the person I am today, to a large extent. I found the churches I went to never preached hatred or bias, the people were generally good and kind people and role models (mostly from my Fortitude Valley  High Church), and the messages taught were about forgiveness and acceptance. I come from a very racist/hating family and yet I am (I hope!) a very open minded person, forgiving, kind, compassionate and approachable. Guilt was not a taught thing, confession was about an overall group forgiveness, everyone was welcome, no issues regarding birth control, sex out of marriage, etc. Yet I see a lot of guilt, angst, anger etc from ex Catholics, and none of them would ever return to the Catholic Church.

My marriage in a high Anglican (Rural) church had a service that did not include the obey etc lines - there wasn't even the bit about the father giving away the bride. But we had to accept their organist and music!!!

I cannot reconcile my experiences and beliefs with Christianity so I can't see myself going back, but my experiences with the Anglican Church are good memories, warm memories, relaxed experiences and teaching and a sense of community. I left because the father of a friend came back to the Church after being in jail for raping her, and he had been involved with my mother (looking for a new family) and I could no longer go to that Church anymore (I didn't realise it at the time, joy of suppressed memories, lack of knowledge about paedophiles, when I was old enough and knowledgeable to understand what happened).

There are strong differences between the Catholic and Anglican Churches. They come from the same origins and the split of England from the Catholic Church is very much from a political and humanist perspective - the history of this has always interested me. The dressings can be very much the same - the alter, choir section, robes, the Communion but the Anglican Church was in part making the church more accessible to the common man - no Latin, no idols, less restrictions etc. Anglican priests can marry but they can also go to the Catholic Church as priests and stay married. Anglicans don't revere the Archbishop of Canterbury like the Catholics do the Pope (no idols etc). Some Anglican Churches are happy to have female and gay priests. Divorce is not so much as issue in the Anglican Church as it is in the Catholic Church.

I will say I have problems with the Catholic Church due to the abuse of children in its care. The stories I have personally heard are horrifying. Not saying that the Anglican Church is a saint with abuse but I have never heard the same stories of abuse from Anglicans as I do Catholics. I suffer from the abuse of Catholic clergy, lay people and others through their abuse of my husband, as does my daughter - horrible abuse that turned someone into a bully etc.

#96 Datrys

Posted 06 January 2020 - 02:59 PM

View Postkatpaws, on 06 January 2020 - 12:42 PM, said:

The Anglican Church does have (spiritual) leader, like the Pope and the Catholic Church - The Archbishop of Canterbury. The Queen (or reigning monarch of the Commonwealth) is the Head of the Church of England or Supreme Governor.

It really isn't the same, though.  The Archbishop of Canterbury has no power over or control of the Anglican Church of Australia, which is self-governing through its general synod (parliament).  The queen is still our head of state but has no power in the church here either.  

So while the Archbishop of Canterbury is kind of a figurehead, and - when we have a good one - can be hugely influential through his/her writings and so on, it's not at all like the Pope, who maintains much more direct control over appointments, policy, etc etc.



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