Edited by jojojoy, 31 August 2006 - 10:25 AM.
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Non-vaccinated kids discussion
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Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:18 PM
hhhmmmmmmmm..... jojojoy, did you not read the OP where I mentioned that this was not really the place for critisism of those that chose not to vaccinate. I am sure you can start a thread with your "issues" and have many people agree with you.
This thread however is for a select group of people who want to discuss intelligently and constructively their decision NOT to. Same as there is probably a thread some where about woman who chose to have elective C sections and want to talk about it, I am not going to go in there and tell them all how I dont agree with them.
I am not going to go into the things you bought up in your post as it is not the time or the place.
Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:55 PM
its a shame you didnt read the thread before posting - you may have realised that for some people the decision to vaccinate or not is not a cut and dried one. <_<
why non-vaccinators think they are entitled to the payment??I dont think its a matter of "thinking" they are entitled... they ARE. Take it up with the government if you have any further problems.
Edited by daffodil27, 30 August 2006 - 09:24 PM.
Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:32 PM
I asked my dr this morning if I could separate them and no, you can't anymore in Vic. Which sucks .
daffodil27, my comments were meant as a compliment to people such as yourself. I'm glad you took it that way. Even this morning sitting with the dr, all the very real and rational arguments against vaccination went out of my head the minute he started with his "well then you risk getting the disease and I wouldn't want that if I were you" diatribe.
This issue is truly the most difficult one I've faced as a parent to date.
Posted 31 August 2006 - 04:02 PM
Fortunately I didnt see jojojoy's posts before they were edited, which is a good thing....... But as for the one comment which I did see because Daffodil quoted it:
why non-vaccinators think they are entitled to the payment??BECAUSE, Maternity Immunisation Allowance is exactly that, an Immunisation allowance, not a vaccination allowance. We *all* know that there are other means by gaining immunity *other* than vaccinations. I will happily spend my Immunisation Allowance reimbursing ourselves for all the money we spend on other means of assisting Ella's immune system thank you very much!
Fortunately, we do have a brilliant GP who has been most practical and level headed in assisting us with our decision and research. He has been very supportive and has given us some hard facts and figures at what Ella's actual likelihood is of contracting the diseases others vaccinate against. The only 2 that he thought we should consider were Polio (if we were to travel overseas) and Tetanus. I have done more research into Tetanus and the more I look into it, the more I am warned against it.
Ella was born with complications. She was Posterior and I ended up having an emergency c-section. She was placed straight into Neonatal on oxygen, glucose and antibiotics for the first 48 hours of her life. We refused the Hep B shots and I was expecting to be at loggerheads with the Nursing Staff about our decisions to not vaccinate. You can imagine my surprise when the Nurse that was caring for Ella commended us on our decision to not vaccinate her. She made it clear though, that of course, her comments were "off record" as there is so much pressure to encourage vaccination. I also was fortunate to have my Child & Youth Health Nurse to be of the same opinion, so my early assistance was quite supportive.
I do have brief flutterings of 'have I done the right thing' but they are quickly dealt with. I know they are just normal 'mothering doubts' and concern for my childs health. But if I was to err on the side of caution, I am glad where I sit, I feel that my erring on the side of caution is to do exactly what I have done, keep my child free of chemicals and pollutants and bi products. I would NEVER forgive myself if I was to vaccinate her and she was to become ill. And I dont just mean ill by having a reaction to the vaccination. We all know that this can happen, I worry about the constant exposure to toxins and the effects vaccinations have on the immune system.
At the end of the day, I have armed myself with knowledge, and not fear. I read, read, read, research, research, research and have become part of a great organisation who provide me with another perspective on vaccinations/health/immune systems etc.
ETA: It is so great to have this group. I have reguarly felt like the odd one out on EB, and often enter into a battle in a certain thread and feel like I am the only one fighting for the cause. I realise lots of others cant be bothered entering into the debate, time and time again, I just cant help myself. Back in the old days (before EB was revamped) there was a member who had a young daughter who's name started with M and was an unusual name, may have been Irish, or Welsh or something?. She wasnt vaccinated and was the picture of health. I cant remember the Members name or if she is still around, if any of the older members can remember her, please refresh my memory! She was always very interesting to read and was very knowledgeable.
Edited by MrsLittlebear, 31 August 2006 - 04:11 PM.
Posted 31 August 2006 - 04:08 PM
fendi - I reackon thats almost the hardest thing - being bullied about it. Even if your GP is pro vaccination, he could have listened to your concerns and talked to you about it more. I bet that would have made you feel better knowing you fears were being acknoledged?
I felt really bullied in hospital after DS was born. I had to say no to at least 5 different people about the vitamin K and hep B shots. In the end DH put his foot down and told them to stop harrassing us and just bring the form to sign to say we wernt.
Obviously you have concerns but are still going ahead with vaccination, so here are a few tips.
* Get your child vaccinated on a monday morning - so you have a full day and week to have quick access to medical care should they have any side effects.
* where possible give only one vaccination at a time as not to over load the body.
* Visit a naturapath or kinesiologist to have some remedies to strengthen their bodies before taking in the vaccine.
I will have to check my books for the others..... Good luck!
Posted 31 August 2006 - 04:21 PM
we must have posted at the same time Mrslittlebear
I would love to know more about the facts and figures your GP gave you???
That is great that you got such positive support up front about you decision!! I am impressed!
It is so great to have this groupI agree! Not every one might agree with our decisions, but I think most of us have made the decision with a lot of thought, consideration and intelligent research.
There are always going to be people like jojojoy who want to pick a fight and get in your face about it, its going to happen, but I think in a designated support thread it was a bit of a low blow <_<
Edited by daffodil27, 31 August 2006 - 04:22 PM.
Posted 31 August 2006 - 04:52 PM
Ha! They try to bully me but I really can live up to my username so most walk away shaking! A couple of points before I start our story (yep - it's long ). You can still get the split MMR in New Zealand. With cheap airfares if that's the way you choose I think it's worth the trip! Another note, the MMR is banned in Japan, split again in the UK, and in the process of being separated in the USA. I have copied this from a post I made when DS1 was 5 years of age:
"Most of you would be aware in my past posts in this topic that I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY PRO - VACCINATION. This has now changed due to my heartbreaking lesson. My 5 year old had his school age injections early in January this year.(2003) The consequences nearly broke my heart. Within the next 10 days he had regressed about 12 months in his behaviour - gone back to being clingy, hysterical, hard to understand speech patterns. But this is not the worst. He wet himself 4 times in 5 days (this little man had not had an "accident" in 18 months or more) and had a RAGE attack at the kindy WHICH HE HAS NO MEMORY OF. The teacher present was so traumatised by this. He went into this rage all of a sudden, no trigger could be seen, he tried to smash his head into the toilet floor, had the strength of an adult, told her to "f##k" off. This lasted about 15 minutes all up. He then cried for the next 20 minutes until I arrived. Now you don't know my son, this is my "delicate little petal"........... no anger or frustration in his tantrums, just tears and "I'm sad Mummy". He NEVER swears (I get in big trouble for saying "Bl**dy Hell" - naughty word Mummy). He is affectionate and gentle and caring.
The teacher knows him well and was absolutely baffled by this. But by the time I got there HE COULD NOT REMEMBER THE INCIDENT - he could describe in detail his actions right up to it, and then from when he was "sad"........ but not any of this rage.......... The teacher was sure of this as well - he was not trying to hide anything, he just didn't remember
This continued unil 2 weeks ago, his behaviour continued to be back to about 12 months previously until I took him to a homeopath (I have never ever been to one before). She ran thru everything from pregnancy to now and placed him on 3 doses of "thujo". I had my little boy back by the 3rd dose!
Now that I look back on it all his problems started with his MMR injection at 2 years! I thought it was just a timing coincidence. :evil: That's what my trusted doctors said .
The homeopath (we went back yesterday) has placed him on another dose of this natural remedy, and seems to think it may even counteract some of the problems he has faced over the last couple of years. We'll see I guess.
BUT I WILL NOT BE JUST BLINDLY IMMUNISING MY CHILDREN FROM NOW ON
I am not saying I will never immunise anymore, but I am sure as hell going to be researching my ass off before any decision is undertaken. I will try homeopathic immunisation before trusting the tradtional system again. It was literally like seeing Jekyll and Hyde with my little boy's reaction to both the MMR needle and the homeopathic cure!!!!!!!!!"
And this is why my DS1 and DS2 have not had any further immunisations. I might add that both my Ds's were chickenpox immunised and DS1 had one of the worst cases 18 months after he was vaccinated against said disease. Has anyone here used the homeopathic vaccinations? I know I lady who has but I would love some more info. <_<
Posted 04 September 2006 - 02:48 PM
I found this in an email I received this morning. Some perspective on what is being injected into our children
Jock Doubleday raises the stakes – put your health where your money is!
Several years ago, Jock Doubleday, founder of Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc., issued a challenge. If any doctor would drink the components of vaccines which do not include the actual antigens themselves but which only consist of the solvents and adjuvants of the vaccines. These are the same vaccines which are regularly and routinely injected into babies! In return for the doctor’s participation in this challenge, Jock would pay them $20,000. Strangely enough, to date there have been no takers.
Jock has now raised the stakes to $75,000. They say that every man and woman has their price. Let’s see if one of those doctors who insist that vaccines are perfectly safe and effective will prove it by taking up the challenge. Watch this space…
* * * PRESS RELEASE * * *
August 1, 2006
$75,000 VACCINE OFFER
THE FOLLOWING OFFER is made to U.S.-licensed medical doctors who routinely administer childhood vaccinations and to pharmaceutical company CEOs worldwide:
Jock Doubleday, director of the California 501©3 nonprofit corporation Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc., hereby offers $75,000.00 to the first medical doctor or pharmaceutical company CEO who publicly drinks a mixture of standard vaccine additives ingredients in the same amount as a six-year-old child is recommended to receive under the year-2005 guidelines of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (In the event that thiomersal has recently been removed from a particular vaccine, the thiomersal-containing version of that vaccine will be used.)
The mixture will not contain viruses or bacteria dead or alive, but will contain standard vaccine additive ingredients in their usual forms and proportions. The mixture will include, but will not be limited to, the
following ingredients: thimerosal (a mercury derivative), ethylene glycol (antifreeze), phenol (a disinfectant dye), benzethonium chloride (a disinfectant), formaldehyde (a preservative and disinfectant), and aluminum.
The mixture will be prepared by Jock Doubleday, three medical professionals that he names, and three medical professionals that the participant names.
The mixture will be body weight calibrated.
Because the participant is either a professional caregiver who routinely administers childhood vaccinations, or a pharmaceutical company CEO whose business is, in part, the sale of childhood vaccines, it is understood by all parties that the participant considers all vaccine additive ingredients to be safe and that the participant considers any mixture containing these ingredients to be safe.
The participant agrees, and any and all agents and associates of the participant agree, to indemnify and hold harmless in perpetuity any and all persons, organizations, and/or entities associated with the event for any
harm caused, or alleged to be caused, directly or indirectly, to the participant or indirectly to the participant's heirs, relations, employers, employees, colleagues, associates, or other persons, organizations, or entities claiming association with, or representation of, the participant, by the participant's participation in the event.
The event will be held within six months of the participant's written agreement to the above and further elaborated terms.
To the list of potential candidates for the $75,000 Vaccine Offer, 14 members of the CDC's 2006 Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) have been added, as follows:
Jon S. Abramson, M.D.
Ban Mishu Allos, M.D.
Carol Baker, M.D.
Janet R. Gilsdorf, M.D.
Harry Hull, M.D.
Susan Lett, M.D.
Tracy Lieu, M.D.
Dale L. Morse, M.D.
Julia Morita, M.D.
Kathleen Neuzil, M.D.
Patricia Stinchfield, N.P.
Ciro Valent Sumaya, M.D.
John J. Treanor, M.D.
Robin J. Womeodu, M.D.
In the event that any of the above ACIP members' terms expire and they are replaced by new members, the new members will be added automatically to the list of potential candidates for the Vaccine Offer.
This offer, dated August 1, 2006, has no expiration date unless superseded by a similar offer of higher remuneration.
Contact Jock Doubleday: email@example.com
This email was from the AVN. www.avn.org.au or www.informedvoice.com.au.
Posted 04 September 2006 - 08:06 PM
That is very interesting sachiko thanks for that info. I will be following this for sure.
Posted 04 September 2006 - 08:50 PM
well I sure as hell wouldnt - and I bet that none of them would either - who in their right mind would????
Speaks volumes doesnt it???
Posted 05 September 2006 - 12:21 PM
My hubby and I decided to delay our son's vaccinations. He is now 15 months and we have made the decision to start now. Anyone with any good ideas about how to go about it? Mostly I need a good doctor who will be understanding and not tell us we've been 'bad' parents for delaying! We live in Bexley, Sydney - so anyone with a good recommendation for a good doctor in the area?
Posted 06 September 2006 - 09:23 PM
I kind of belong here. I started researching when my eldest was about 12 months old after she had a reaction to her first few vaccinations.
My second DD has had a few vaccinations but not all. Now that I have DD3 I am back to researching again. My eldest 2 have been receiving homeoprophylaxis for the last year. DD3 was born at home and didn't receive Hep B or Vitamin K.
This thread has been a great read.
Posted 07 September 2006 - 12:13 AM
Thanks for your tips daffodil27. A quick update - we are not going ahead with the 12 month vaccinations at this stage. We may do them later, but as of now they are postponed. I probably will not get DD's 4 yo vaccinations done either (not an issue until 02/07).
I have armed myself with knowledge, and not fear.
This really hit home with me. I need to be more comfortable (and assertive where required) with what I know.
madmother, had I never encountered opposing opinions on vaccination, your story alone would have made me stop and seriously question the decision to vaccinate. Thanks for sharing it.
Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:12 PM
I can recommend a Dr Daniel Hameiri in Double Bay. 12455 can give you his number.
Posted 11 September 2006 - 09:24 AM
Hi Sachiko - Thanks for the recommendation - Double Bay is a little far for us, but if I don't find someone closer will consider it!
Posted 12 September 2006 - 04:00 PM
Fendi, I can sort of tell you feel relieved???
Well done on recognising that a desison made in fear is not always the best one!
Posted 13 September 2006 - 11:56 AM
We took our 7 week old DD to the DR yesterday for her 6 week check up. My husband had the flu all last week and I couldn't get her to the DR on my own, too busy looking after both of them !
Anyway, the DR said why don't we give Zoe her vaccinations today now that you're here? He didn't give us much option and practically railroaded us into it without giving us any information on it. Thankfully Zoe started crying for food and the nurse suggested that I feed her a bit before the needle so my hubbie and I went into another room where I could feed her and we looked at each other and said "Are we really ready for this now?" and decided we need more info before we get her vaccinated. The needle is a six-in-one which sounds like a big hit for such a little girl!!
Question is where can I get more info? and for those of you who haven't vaccinated aren't you worried that when your babies are at mothers group etc they will catch something from the other kids/mothers?
Sorry for long post, just so happy to see there are others who question the need for vaccinations. BTW our litle girl got the Vit K orally as we didn't want her injected at birth.
Thanks for any advice, Zoe's proud mum
Posted 13 September 2006 - 02:34 PM
The needle is a six-in-one
I would definetly try and get them singularly if you can... that a lot to overwhelm a small system with
In reagrds to doing your research - a did a bit on google, I have a few books and also have spoken to lots of doctors and practicioners. You just have to start and build up your knowledge. Even if you start by googling and with information on both sides of the debate, take it at face value until you form a conclusive view.
But like most decisions in life, you seek information to validate the choice you have already made from the gut.
Good luck, pop and discuss some more, people might have answers to questions you have.
for those of you who haven't vaccinated aren't you worried that when your babies are at mothers group etc they will catch something from the other kids/mothers?There are no gaurentees even if we did vaccinate. Also a strong immune system goes a long way. But there are always risks but you cant live your life in fear!
Posted 15 September 2006 - 04:06 PM
Hi everyone, I'm glad I found this thread.
I don't have a child yet, well, out of the womb anyway , but I've been looking for information regarding vaccinations since a natural therapist I was seeing for dietary advice mentioned not vaccinating after I asked him about the MMR. Before that, I was worried about vaccinating my child with the MMR due to report I'd heard about it possibly being linked to autism, but thought vaccinating, even singly, was still a must. People who don't vaccinate seemed to be painted as lazy, uneducated and uncaring parents who just couldn't be bothered.
I'm very interested in doing further research on vaccinating my baby now before I do it (if I do it). I know some people have already asked similar questions, but what has your research turned up in regards to the following arguments for vaccinating:
- that more people not vaccinating will cause an epidemic of these diseases.
- that the strains of the diseases will get stronger and more deadly due to the above.
I will of course be researching this myself, but I'd be really interested in any further information you could share with me.
Posted 16 September 2006 - 10:39 PM
Back in the old days (before EB was revamped) there was a member who had a young daughter who's name started with M and was an unusual name, may have been Irish, or Welsh or something?. She wasnt vaccinated and was the picture of health. I cant remember the Members name or if she is still around, if any of the older members can remember her, please refresh my memory! She was always very interesting to read and was very knowledgeable.
Are you talking about Midlands Angel? Daughter Morwenna?
I've been here way too long.....
While I am in here....Fendi Your posts have really struck a chord with me. We feel exactly the same way. We have delayed Charlottes immunisations. She is nearly 21 months and we are staggering things here and there with the help of our patient GP.
Posted 17 September 2006 - 08:07 PM
that the strains of the diseases will get stronger and more deadly due to the above.
My understanding is that this is occurring because of vaccination.
Also the diseases and complications of in children are less severe/less frequent than if contracted as an adult. What's more, you are more likely to have a lifelong immunity to a disease if you actually get it, vaccinations do not offer the same protection. So as I undertand it, the incidences of adults contracting these diseases is increasing along with the complications.
My experience with my first baby was that there seems to be a general panic about for example, a 1% chance of a complication from chicken pox, and a gloss over regarding the much higher % chance of a negative reaction to the vaccine (with no guarantees of protection from the disease itself either).
Posted 17 September 2006 - 09:11 PM
Midlands still posts.. she was in the homebirth forum the other day.
Posted 18 September 2006 - 02:10 PM
Daffodil - thank you for starting this thread! I considered tentatively broaching the topic of not vaccinating in other areas of the forum but seeing how other, way less contraversial topics can somehow become a huge mudslinging match I decided against it. Even though it's really hard to hear about Mums in parent groups etc describing all their babies upset behaviours after getting vaccines and not respond.
I have two beautiful DSs - age 10 and 2 months, neither are vaccinated and my youngest had no vitamin K. I have never struggled with my decision. I am not in the habit of discussing vaccination too much anymore as it was becoming tiring getting bullied by doctors and hassled by people and being personally blamed for the continuation of diseases... and I actually struggled for a long time to be able to discuss the topic of vaccination at all without a big bunch of expletives exploding out of my mouth and seeing red behind my eyeballs.. Stories like MyLittleMen's just make me so Grrahhhaahh (think of Eric Bana turning into the hulk!!) Thank you for sharing that! But I've got myself under control now ...I think..and I promise to behave myself
Here's pictures of my two YummyScrummies:
Their immunities have been and are being built up naturally with plenty of boobyjuice n good tucker and natural exposure! My eldest gets the odd cough or cold but I believe he ails less frequently and less severely than a lot of the kids around him. Gotta go I've just been piddled on!
Edited by SoftTouch, 18 September 2006 - 02:41 PM.
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