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The thorny issue of needles


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#51 sydneywil

Posted 24 April 2009 - 11:48 PM

Larissa32 - Im with you about the lack of research.

I also wonder why they would even study if there was a link between Autism and Vaccinations when everyone knows that the debate is about "Regressive Autism" not ALL forms (as par the recent studies). Regressive Autism is only a small percentage of cases. Its like saying - does smoking cause all forms of cancer and the answer is obviously NO. Now if you study specific forms then you may (or may not) get a different result.

"Government health initiatives would include it in their safety guidelines, SIDS and Kids would mention it. These people have kids too (many have sadly lost babies, in the case of SIDS and Kids). They are not going to ignore something like that."

People who work in tobacco companies also have kids.

Many of the class actions against certain vaccinations have been organised by doctors at the top of their field.

Im not anti-vaccination i just understand that what is researched and what is not researched is driven by funding. I am for people making their own decisions based on the available research, their own personal circumstances, results of court cases (which is the most up-to-date information) and their own feelings on the matter. I am not for people making decisions based on bullying extremists -from either side.

#52 poss71

Posted 27 April 2009 - 01:02 AM

QUOTE
A couple of weeks ago I found out my friend's 2 sons both had whooping cough, one was only 9 mths old and fully vaccinated. They are both fine and didn't really get all that sick

because they were vaccinated.

QUOTE
I started by questioning the most obviously absurd in my mind, Hep. B at birth!?

If your child is bitten hard enough to draw blood by another child at childcare or playgroup, you might want to be comforted by having protected your child from the risk of catching Hep B - saliva to blood transmission is one way of catching Hep B. Hep B is NOT curable. Children DO bite.

All the conspiracy theory stuff is really annoying. If you are going to rant on about what is researched and what is not, look at the real issues. Malaria, for instance. There is no vaccine for malaria, supposedly because it is a 3rd world disease and/or there's no money in it. When a vaccination is produced, people are putting their skill and training into finding something that works, not issuing placebos - or "poisons" rolleyes.gif - to try to gouge money from poor victimised parents. Get real. Read the studies. The risks and benefits of each vaccination are out there for all to see. There is no link between MMR vaccine and autism. The preservative that supposedly had potential to activate latent autism has not been included in vaccines since 2000, and was never in the MMR vaccine.

ETA the link to back up the above statement:Immunisation Myths and Realities

Edited by poss71, 27 April 2009 - 01:16 AM.


#53 lola2

Posted 27 April 2009 - 01:11 PM

Thanks Poss71

Like I said, everyone I spoke to was vaccinating out of fear and ignorance.  Your 'what if' scenarios are no more rational than conspiracy theories...Hep. B at birth?  How many newborns are in your playgroup?  What percentage of these biting newborns have Hep. B and where/how did they get it?  

Nevermind the scare tactics, what are the facts?  What are the effects on the complex immune system of immunising at birth against viruses that we don't fully understand?

I'm suggesting that parents stop doing things because the doctor said to and instead ask questions, do the research, and I don't mean reading pro-immunization material only but  research both for and against, and then make your decisions as a fully informed parent.

#54 susanmumo3

Posted 28 April 2009 - 07:21 PM

bbaby.gif  bbaby.gif  bbaby.gif

I never hesitated to vaccinate all three of my girls. I would have hated to deny them the chance of life if they were to catch an illness that could have been prevented.

My eldest is Autistic (Aspergers) and I am convinced this is not as a result of vaccination, rather than a genetic condition.

My twins show no signs of autism and, in fact, pick up on the difference in conceptual understanding of everyday activities in their older sister (at 2years of age).

Parents need to thoroughly research the pros and cons, with the known make up of their child before making this decision to vaccinate.

My husband and I never had allergies, we lived healthy lives, our children were robust at birth (even the twins) and I could see no physical signs that they should not be vaccinated. I also discussed this all with my paediatrician, GP and health nurse well in advance of the vaccination date.

Prevention is better than the cure!

#55 lola2

Posted 28 April 2009 - 11:18 PM

Dear Susanmumo3

I'm sure vaccinations are not the only possible cause of autism.  

My son is also robustly healthy, as are myself and my husband, and with all the pressure to vaccinate, and before I had any information regarding immunisation, I considered that he probably wouldn't even have any immediate adverse reactions.  But I don't think it's enough to say that a vaccine has no negative effect just because there isn't an immediate reaction.  

You don't get cancer from your first cigarette, in fact it may not personally cause you cancer at all, however, look at the rise of anti-smoking campaign and how unpopular a once very social pass time has become.

I don't think we can interfere with the complex immune system without the real possibility of compromising it's function, weakening our physical constitution and thereby creating susceptibility to other disease etc.

Regardless of the subject, I like to make an informed decision and I was surprised how difficult it was to get any real information from doctors and midwives or from friends who had already chosen to vaccinate...they just did so out of fear or pressure.

Since I began researching this topic I personally became increasingly concerned about the deeper, long term effects of immunisation, especially on the developing immune systems of babies and children.

When we stop succumbing to the pressure and fear and read some facts about our immune systems and viruses it becomes very obvious that immunisation is not a solution, in fact it's quite likely complicating our health issues.  

Prevention IS better than cure and I hope that more parents will take responsibility for their family health and consider the long term effects of immunisation rather than opting for a quick fix blanket solution.

#56 Pagan

Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:41 AM

QUOTE
I don't have respect for parents who vaccinate because no intelligent parent could even consider poisoning their child, out of their own ignorance and fear, if they only did some research prior to birth.
  roll2.gif
This is hysterical! You're joking right?
So you 'researched' conspiracy theories on the interwebz and now you know 'the truth'? Dear god!  

QUOTE
I'm sure vaccinations are not the only possible cause of autism.
Vaccinations donot cause autism. If you had actually done your research you would know this.

Ali, so sad. I knew your reasoning was a bit off, but if you agree with lola2 I guess there's no hope.  nno.gif

QUOTE
But I don't think it's enough to say that a vaccine has no negative effect just because there isn't an immediate reaction.
This is the dumbest 'debate'.
Any substance taken in the right dose can kill you. Even water. Vaccines are very safe and prevent disease. Yes a small number of people may have a reaction, but diseases cause death. Get some perspective people!

#57 ratbags

Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:01 AM

Great post Lola

#58 Guest_Cat©_*

Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:23 AM

Funnily enough when I went to the main teaching hospital here in Perth the other day with Ethan and she asked if he was immunised. I said no and explained why....

She said she completely understood and that there is some belief in medical circles that the immunisations may "uncover" or make worse what was already a genetic tendancy in the child. She was a paediatrician at a major hostpital and said what I have believed for years.

No, I dont immunise anymore, but when you have already had to revive one child and nearly lose him several times after, within HOURS of being immunised. Also had the next two children within hours of immunisation suddenly start having seizures and stop hearing thier parents and withdraw to thier own world, then hell yes I will stop immunising!!

Obviously I would rather have a child with Autism as some said, than a dead child.....but considering the immunisation did stop my child breathing, and then he also ended up with autism. I think I have a reasonable enough "excuse" to no longer immunise! dry.gif

It is up to the parent to do reasonable research and make the decision of what is best for thier child. I followed the heard, immunised my child and now am paying the hard lesson learnt, that the immunisations and my children genetic makeup are not compatible.....same as my mother, immunisations nearly kill her.....a simple flu shot and she ends up in hospital.

#59 ratbags

Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:24 AM

QUOTE
Actually Pagan, no research has confirmed that vaccinations do not cause autism
To true Ali, just because a link has not been found YET does not mean that there is NO link. I mean heck a couple of years ago they couldn't map DNA now look at what is possible, what I would like to know is "what are all the nay sayers going to say when a possible link is found between vaccinations and childhood illnesses", is the medical faternity going to be big enough to admit they got it wrong? My guess is NO!

#60 sissyhankshaw

Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:29 AM

lola2  27/04/2009, 01:11 PM  
I'm suggesting that parents stop doing things because the doctor said to...
[i]

I love the suggestions that doctors and medical researchers don't really know what they are on about - they are just in the grip of big bad pharma and blindly follow its lead, or worse, are on a hellbent mission to poison our children and cause terrible lifelong pain and misery.

If your child broke her leg, you would take her straight to the emergency room and get it set. If she was in a car accident, you would take her to get stitched up and given a blood tranfusion. If she had pneumonia you would put her on a course of antibiotics. If she had leukaemia you would take her to hospital and give her treatment (around 90% of childhood leukaemia is now cured due to advances in medical science as opposed to around 10% 50 years ago).

So why, when it comes to immunisation, do doctors who have worked their guts out in school to achieve the marks to slog it out for years at university and more years in a hospital suddenly know less that a few mums who have done a bit of internet research???

#61 Pagan

Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:34 AM

QUOTE
Actually Pagan, no research has confirmed that vaccinations do not cause autism.

And no research has confirmed that broccoli does not cause autism either.
You should know that a scientific study cannot 'prove' a negative. You can only show a causal link. And no-one has ever found one.
Every study done to date has found no link between autism and vaccination.
I can't beleive you are actually putting this forward as a legitimate reason not to vax.

There are proven dangers in not vaccinating. There is no proof of most of the things mentioned here.

Your risk assessment skills are truely impaired.

#62 ratbags

Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:44 AM

QUOTE
So why, when it comes to immunisation, do doctors who have worked their guts out in school to achieve the marks to slog it out for years at university and more years in a hospital suddenly know less that a few mums who have done a bit of internet research???
Sissyhankshaw can I answer this too?

I do respect doctors opinions in that I have asked them for information so that we could make informed decisions, my DH and I decided after careful research not to vaccinate with ALL the information that we had at hand. What I disagree with is when I am asking for information from doctors about immunisations and I get called an irresponsible parent and told that my son's can sue me when they are older, and that they as doctors wish they had the power such as those in the US to report parents like me to Children Services, because I question the validity of vaccinations, not that I wasn't getting it done but because I happened to question them!

And for the record I will not accept any random doctors opinion straight off the bat, WHY? Because whilst they have trained for years, they are still human. Regardless of your profession you still 'can' carry personal beliefs in your line of work, I am not stating that ALL doctors are biased per se, but I do think that doctors in general feel extremely uncomfortable having to explain themselves to we mere parents, that being said maybe it has just been the bunch of doctors that we have experienced.

And yes doctors still need to explain themselves to people, they are doing things to our bodies of course they should be accountable and explain the pro's and con's. I question anyone that has to do something to myself or my children, heck I even question when take my car into get fixed! To even think that doctors have some form of immunity from supplying patients with informed information is an example of the absolute level of snobbery and bigotry that has seen the medical profession rape people of true choice throughout history.

I will not be threatened or accused because I seek information, unbiased information should be readily available to EVERYONE on request, doctors tend to do the eye rolling, huffing and sighing and threats instead of supplying me with the information that I seek.

Maybe the difference between you and I, is that I have had children in the medical system for nearly 12 years, I have seen first hand the robotism of motion that doctors presume parents 'should' follow.

As I have said numerous times do not confuse choice with ignorance!

Edited by ratbags, 29 April 2009 - 11:00 AM.


#63 Pagan

Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:14 AM

QUOTE
And for the record I will not accept any random doctors opinion straight off the bat, WHY? Because whilst they have trained for years, they are still human.

QUOTE
I have seen first hand the robotism of motion that doctors presume parents 'should' follow, as I always say do not confuse choice with ignorance!

I do not take doctors advice 'straight off the bat'.
I have met many doctors who are plain stupid. You're right, they are only human.
But vaccination is not about doctors. It is about science, evidence and disease.

I do not 'follow' what a doctor says, I follow the evidence. And the evidence shows that vaccinating is in the bests interests of your child.

The choice vs ignorance thing is interesting because people who claim to be making an 'informed choice' keep demonstrating hw mistaken they are by the claims they are making in this thread.
Google any condition on the internet and you will catch all the extreme cases. It is not representative of the true picture. Just because you read something on an 'informative' anti-vacc website, or hear of a rare case where something went wrong, does not mean you are fully 'informed'. You have not just discovered the 'truth' about vaccination!

I really hope anyone in doubt, who is reading this, will understand that those supporting vaccination are not 'blindly following' doctors. They want what is best for your child and to protect the community. They don't want to see you mislead by the scare campaigners. Millions of people have been vaccinated and millions of lives saved. That is a fact.

No one can tell you that our air, water, panadol or even your breast milk is 100% safe for your child.
Life has no 100% guarentees. If you live that way no-one would ever do anything because of a 'risk' that we haven't found.
Trading a remote possible risk for a real risk? Please use your common sense in this matter.

#64 ethereal

Posted 29 April 2009 - 12:42 PM

Neither of my children are fully vaccinated.  I took each one along at 8 weeks like a 'good' mother should but stopped there for a number of reasons.  With DD, it was because she had a reaction where she was very ill for 10 days following and still had a large blue/black swelling in her leg 2 months later when the next round was due.  That got me asking questions as to whether it was in her interests to continue.  Her doctor refused to acknowledge that her reaction was caused by the vaccine - just a coincidence that she got a nasty virus on the same day perhaps?  She went on to develop anaphylaxis to peanut, asthma and other allergies.  I am glad I did not continue as she seems to have a tendancy toward reactions that can and do kill very quickly.

Next I took DS determined not to let DD's experience deny him the protection of vaccination.  This time, 4 syringes were brought out (normal I hear now).  I immediately was concerned and felt this was too much viral junk to pump into my beautiful healthy new baby in one go.  There has to be some limit to what an immature immune system can process at the one time.  I consented to the hib and dtp but was made to feel like an evil person for having this opinion by the nurse and doctor.  I just never took him back.  He responded well with no reaction.  He'd probably be fine to get all his shots.  If I could discuss my concerns with his doctor and get reasonable answers to my questions without the condescending attitudes and negativity, I probably would continue.  Clear facts and statistics  are very hard to find among all the emotional for and against arguments.
Instead, I recently took DS to his GP for an ear infection, his first and only in nearly 4 years.  His GP immediately told me his ear infection was because he wasn't vaccinated.  Friends children, all fully vaccinated have much more frequent ear infections and seem to live on antibiotics.  This medical opinion does little to inspire my confidence in our GP's wisdom and knowledge.  Next someone will try to tell my symptom-free son is spreading ear infections to the vaccinated children.

As for the view that my unvaccinated children are a risk to others, I have signed a form stating that in the event of a vaccine preventable disease occuring in the school/kindy, my children will be withdrawn immediately.  In fact, even if they were fully vaccinated I would keep them home if there was an outbreak of a deadly disease as most people contracting diseases in an outbreak have been vaccinated anyway.  This is unlike the many parents of children suffering from influenza and other viruses who continue to send their children to school/kindy with temperatures and mucous streaming from their noses.  It isn't just vaccine preventable diseases that can kill and cause suffering.  Many hundreds of people die from the flu each year in Australia.

There are risks in vaccinating and risks in not vaccinating and each parent has the right to weigh up those risks based on facts generally and in relation to the individual child and family's situation. It would be easier to do this if parents were able to access unbiased information and ask questions without being criticised.

#65 Pagan

Posted 29 April 2009 - 01:11 PM

QUOTE
Instead, I recently took DS to his GP for an ear infection, his first and only in nearly 4 years. His GP immediately told me his ear infection was because he wasn't vaccinated.

It's stuff like this that makes people doubt decent advice isn't it?
QUOTE
It would be easier to do this if parents were able to access unbiased information and ask questions without being criticised
I realy agree with this.

#66 ratbags

Posted 29 April 2009 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE
Just because you read something on an 'informative' anti-vacc website, or hear of a rare case where something went wrong, does not mean you are fully 'informed'. You have not just discovered the 'truth' about vaccination!
And who made your opinion the poster statement on vaccinations Pagan?

I do not attempt to promote anti -vaccinations, I do not attempt to belittle people to my way of thinking. To think that people truly believe that we 'anti vaccination' people while away our days doing internet searches is both extremely uneducated and preposterously ignorant rolleyes.gif

And as for this  
QUOTE
It would be easier to do this if parents were able to access unbiased information and ask questions without being criticised.
QUOTE
I realy agree with this
Are you for real? You have written a post pulling apart my right as a parent to question the validity of vaccinations and then reply with that!

QUOTE
But vaccination is not about doctors. It is about science, evidence and disease.
Of course it is about doctors, it is not dentists that are administering it, doctors are the representatives of the medical science world. So then if doctors aren't about the vaccinations how can they be qualified to administer a medication that they know nothing about? Doctors are involved in the equation at some point 'other' than the needle end.

My research has been in place since 1995, we read avidly many differenting texts, unlike others we will read literature supporting vaccination as well as against it. Just because we are against vaccinations for our family does not mean that we are only capable of reading literature that supports our beliefs, we do not find the need to insulate ourselves with literature supporting our beliefs.

And for the record my DH has a tertiary science background, so we are not sheeple following the latest trend.

#67 Pagan

Posted 29 April 2009 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE
Are you for real?
Yes.
QUOTE
You have written a post pulling apart my right as a parent to question the validity of vaccinations and then reply with that!

I think that parents should be able to rely on doctors to answer questions and concerns, without dismissing them. That goes for all medical situations.

Ripping your thread apart??
I'm responding to your points and those of others in the thread. I'm not just talking to you!

It goes both ways ratbags. We get accused of 'blindly following' , not being informed, being called 'sheeple', Please.

Pity you can't converse without getting completely hysterical

#68 lola2

Posted 29 April 2009 - 03:44 PM

Zande

I'm really sorry you didn't have the support of your partner or family members, that would be really tough.  Perhaps you can consider homeopathic treatment to counteract any negative side affects of vaccination (although there's a lot of opposition to that too, I've used it for years now and never been healthier!)
www.thehomeopathiccoach.com is a great website

The opposition can be overwhelming...I'm a bit stubborn though and the more resistance I get, the more determined I become...I would leave a play group and my husband for that matter, in order to protect my rights as a mother to choose not to vaccinate.

Having said that...my husband was totally supportive of my taking responsibility to understand this topic.   I guess because we are both such healthy happy people since we stopped swallowing every antibiotic and painkiller dished out and started taking responsibility for our health with so-called 'alternative' medicine which actually supports individual health.

#69 ratbags

Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:02 PM

hysterical - now that is funny! I respond to what you have written in answer to my posts and you claim I am becoming hysterical, interesting.

Anyhow I would like to clarify a point Pagan this statement
QUOTE
And for the record my DH has a tertiary science background, so we are not sheeple following the latest trend.
wasn't actually inferred toward the pro vaccination people (that being you), it was in fact referring to we people that do not vaccinate. I was attempting to show that anti vaccinator's are not on a band wagon of anarchy against the apparent norm, I do appreciate that it may have seemed like I was calling pro vaccinators sheeple.

And for the record I do not accuse people of
QUOTE
We get accused of 'blindly following'
why because I don't have a need to make other people feel inferior and I respect your decision as a parent, what I don't respect are people attempting to pull apart a belief that I have, huge difference.

#70 Pagan

Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:38 PM

QUOTE
what I don't respect are people attempting to pull apart a belief that I have, huge difference

See, that's a concern. A belief. Beliefs are hard to change and are often based in emotion, whereas ideas can be updated or changed easily.

Why do you need to worry about your belief's being 'pulled apart'? I don't have to 'beleive' in vaccination, I just follow the best evidence at this point in time. If the evidence changes, so does my view.

I'm only interested in challenging ideas. If you have the idea that vaccinations my prove harmful in the long run, fine. If you (or anyone else) beleive that they cause autism, fine. But at the moment there isn't evidence to support that belief. That's all I'm saying. You might believe it, but that doesn't make it true.

Truth is, if it wasn't for vaccines we would be living with Polio in Australia right now.

Perhaps you should identify what it is about your decision or ideas that leaves you with the view they could be 'ripped apart' by someone's dissenting voice?

#71 lola2

Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:08 PM

Thanks Poss71 for the link to 'Immunisation Myths and Realities' but actually it's just a government health PR brochure for Practioners "...This publication gives health professionals information to address some of the most commonly held myths about immunisation."

No bias here!  And I imagine it will be very reassuring to Cat among others to read the first Myth-buster!

"1. ‘Vaccines are unsafe’ ...The Facts...

The majority of problems thought to be related to the administration of a vaccine are actually not due to the vaccine itself. Many are coincidental events that just happen to be linked in time to immunisation...A good example of this is a six month
old infant having a seizure. If the seizure started one hour after a vaccination,
it would be natural to think differently about why it may have occurred than  
if it commenced one hour before  the vaccination..."


Hmmm, 'The Facts' indeed!

"Vaccines weaken or overwhelm the Immune System...The Facts...

Children are exposed to many foreign antigens on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing. Providers can therefore be confident in reassuring parents that their infant’s immune system is very robust and designed to respond to multiple challenges..."


Yes, routine eating and drinking...and these foreign antigens take the intended route through the gut, i.e. a natural entry to the body as opposed to unnatural entry (vaccination), with very different immune responses!

Please tell me you're not suggesting that parents 'inform' themselves with these Government Health PR 'Facts'?!

For any parent wanting ACTUAL FACTS please see www.theinformedparent.co.uk
The Special Edition Newsletter is a great place to start with a variety of articles and research information on a number of diseases and vaccines.

#72 country~mum

Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:17 PM

Pagan wrote: "Millions of people have been vaccinated and millions of lives saved. That is a fact."

Exactly. This is what the debate boils down to. Vaccinated children and adults protect not only those who are not vaccinated due to choice, but also those in the community who have compromised/poor immune systems such as the elderly and babies.

#73 ratbags

Posted 29 April 2009 - 06:07 PM

Pagan we are going round and round in circles here like a fart in a bottle, you are being pedantic over things that I am writing perhaps even hysterical tongue.gif  I do not worry about my belief's being rattled, I am concerned that people feel they have a right to ATTEMPT to question my decision as a parent! I realise that may seem an arrogant thing to say, as being challenged 'can' create change, but why is my opinion to stand for what I believe in any less important than what you personally believe in?

I fully respect what you believe in and that you have done the right thing by your children I truly do, your opinion has not rattled me, hasn't made me think twice about my decision concerning vaccinating my children - why? because as of yet nothing has been presented to me that hasn't already been presented. For my DH and I once the vaccinations are in place it is too late, I cannot take that risk - plain and simple.

Our decisions may seem arrogant, stupid, selfish or any other demeaning word that you may attempt to direct at myself and others, I on the other hand have no need to belittle you on here because I have no need try and garner the upper hand and win you over with my decision.

It comes down to a case of agree to disagree.

Edited by ratbags, 29 April 2009 - 11:57 PM.


#74 lola2

Posted 29 April 2009 - 06:24 PM

Hi Country-Mum

I don't believe vaccinated children are protecting mine at all...that's more Govt. Health PR and must make you feel like a real do-gooder (sorry, no personal offence intended)...but rather I suspect there are much greater consequences for messing with immune systems and viruses as opposed to taking responsibility for our personal health.

A little bit of the track here (although quite possibly related), but I was interested to note last night in a report on Swine Flu that it was not children or the elderly most at risk of Swine Flu but the 20-50 age group...and I vaguely remember reading something about this in relation to some other virus.

#75 country~mum

Posted 29 April 2009 - 06:46 PM

Um yeah, okay Lola I can see that you meant no personal offence  rolleyes.gif




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