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Did the feminists get it all wrong?


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#51 kp0507

Posted 16 February 2010 - 07:15 AM

bessidy, I'd say you're 'more' than 'just' a house wife as you are contributing to the management of a property, not just a house!

I do agree with you about feeling the pressure to work. I have worked out of the home since having my children but have stopped as it wasn't working for my family. I struggle almost daily with feelings of inadequacy and guilt, (not so much boredom as I am a very involved parent, and I haven't lost my ability to read!) mostly resulting from comments I get from family members and accquaintances.

Apparently, my 3 year old should be in childcare because 'they need it for their socialisation'. Whatever, I know that my particular child is happier home with me and that's enough reason for me to put off working for now.
We don't have a mortgage and friends laugh out loud about our TV! Apparently, I will have to re-train to be employable because I'm not keeping a foot in the door. I will have about 35 years of work outside the home left in me when my youngest starts school. I don't see why I have to 'have it all' (read- do it all) all at once! original.gif

#52 kpingitquiet

Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:25 PM

This is all a bit strange to me. In the US, where I'm from originally, it's far more unusual or a woman to be a SAHM or even a WAHM. I worked for a high-powered doctors professional association in DC and, in my dept alone (12 of us) we had three moms with five pregnancies between them, and that was just during my three years there! All the moms worked up until delivery, took 12-16 weeks off (remember, there is NO public care or maternity or childcare in the US, it's all through individual job benefits or self-funded), then came back to work. These are some of the most dedicated mothers I've ever known, too.

Mom #1 - Is in her 40s, gave birth to her (1st being 2 yrs old) 2nd by homebirth when we worked together, arranged with Human Resources to let her work from home 1 day per week, and breast pumped every day for the entire time we worked together. Her eldest didn't sleep through the night until age 2.5 and she STILL came to work and did an amazing job. She's a web designer, a solid worker, and one of the moms I admire most. She raises her kids in a natural, organic, healthy home and loves them more than life. Her husband is also one of the most nurturing/co-parenting types I've ever met.

Mom #2 - In her early 30s, is now pregnant with her 3rd child. Hubby takes the kids to daycare and she hauls her butt to the gym at 430am, comes to work by 6am, leaves by 3pm, and spends the rest of the day playing with her kids, managing her house, and enjoying her family. She is, by far, the most dedicated worker in the office, makes full use of flex-time arrangements and never misses a beat. Her husband should help more, and I've told him that lol. But he does do the morning routine and bathe them at night. She somehow still manages to make 20ft cake trains for her son's bday. She is a Program Analyst.

Mom #3 - In her late 30s...should be put up for sainthood. Her eldest was born with severe medical/devel issues and is wheelchair-confined with only 10% movement, next to zero communication skills, and need for constant supervising, and -never- sleeps through the night. She thinks he's the best thing in the world. Her second child was born with a major heart defect and had surgery at 15 days. He's beautifully healthy now. Their third, a little girl, was born in perfect and gorgeous health. She worked her ass off to maintain work and hospital schedules, lobbied the govt to help her aford in-home nurse care for her son, sleeps next to her eldest every night in case the slightest thing happens to him, and does all of this with a relatively supportive dad, backing her up. She occasionally slacks on the work-front, but who wouldnt?! She is a Publication & Marketing Specialist.

These women and their husbands make it work. Through pregnancy, motherhood, illnesses, hard times...they provide needed money and health benefits for their babies and give every non-work moment to dedicated motherhood, making sure they raise healthy, kind, intelligent children. They also make sure to work for a fabulous company that helps them do it all. I admire them, true...but this is the way it is for millions of women all over the US. Not sure why it's such an oddity here.

#53 chenchen21621

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:29 PM

I don't really understand your arguament that women can't afford to have a career unless they are high income earners. Why are you placing the responsibility for the cost of childcare etc back onto the woman? Surely this is a family expense to be shared between both parents. Also, although the immediate $$ benefits may not be there, by simply staying in thw workforce, people (both men and women) are able to move forward in their careers and make it to those higher paying positions where it eventually does become worth it.
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#54 ComradeBob

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:43 PM

Feminists fought for EQUALITY. Equality wtih men, which is a good thing so far as it goes.

Unfortunately this was done within a class system that says that richer people of whichever gender will always have more options, be they being a SAHM for a few years, or getting a nanny so you can continue your high powered career. When you are poorer, you simply don't have those options available, whether you are male or female.


I don't think feminists got it wrong at all - I am profoundly grateful for the many advances women have fought, and fought hard for, like the vote, or being able to work outside of the home after you get married, or the concept that yes, we DO have brains, or contraception, for that matter. I know there are a lot of other, I just can't think of them at the moment.


But we do need a more equal society for everyone, because frankly, for a working class woman, equality with a working class man with little money or prospects is not good for either, equality with those with more is the aim.


#55 red door

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:49 PM

Feminism from the 70's onward WAS essentially a very white middle class notion. Of course that is who is was always going to serve...

#56 Mrs Dinosaurus

Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:19 PM

QUOTE (red door @ 11/08/2010, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Feminism from the 70's onward WAS essentially a very white middle class notion. Of course that is who is was always going to serve...


This.

Lots of fantastic stuff out there from both rich black feminists and feminists from africa, asia etc - much of it says white women don't understand what it is to be a (black/indian/chinese etc) woman.

While this is all true I (yes, white, middle class feminist) think feminism follows development - once nation States move beyond the agriculture stage and into the manufacturing stage (and generally before the services stage) then feminism starts to find a voice and support among the general public. It is irrelevant to me that women living in Iran are fighting for different things than my mother's generation fought for in the UK or Australia - it is only relevant that they are fighting.

So, no - the feminists never got it wrong, they just didn't all want the same thing, and why should they?



#57 BetteBoop

Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:46 PM

QUOTE (CharlotteSometimes @ 19/06/2009, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Exactly. It makes me furious to read or hear women making derogatory remarks about 'the feminists' exactly as if feminism was one homogeneous group(which it's NOT)and seemingly being ignorant of all that feminisms have achieved for women.

But don't bag feminism. If it weren't for the efforts of the first and second wave feminists women wouldn't have the right to own property, to vote, to have bank accounts in their own name, to divorce at will. There'd be no welfare payments for single mothers and no laws against rape within marriage and domestic/family violence. If it weren't for feminism, we'd not have most of the choices, rights we take for granted today. Women would automatically be expected to resign upon marriage as they were in my mother's day. They would be paid a lot less for equal work as they were in my mother's day. Mum had a high up government job working for a cabinet minister and was paid a third of what her male peers made! This was in the mid - late sixties. It frustrates me enormously when people just don't GET that.


Precisely. The only people who think the hairy nasty feminists got it wrong are misogynists.

OP, if you do some basic research on the kind of oppression that women continue to face today (equal pay not acheived, almost no justice for rape victims, systemic discrimination of mothers in the workforce), you might realise that your opinions on evil feminism is the result of anti-women propaganda perpetuated by the media in this country. Not surprising given the media in Australia is uniformly owned by white, wealthy, anglo saxon men.

The true state of affairs for women, even in privileged countries, might surprise you. Equality is a long way off. You might grow to appreciate the efforts of the women who continue to fight for equality, despite the fact that some women are neither appreciative nor deserving of their efforts.

#58 monka_su777

Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:49 PM

Thanks for your post , this is a voice of millions including myself. Nowadays,  it is so obvious  for men  having  women for  partnership  - "fifty:fifty" deal : work and,  then clean  and  motherhood . It is far too easy to become imperfect  when this  job is incomplete.

#59 suline

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:15 AM

A thread from 2010 revived by a member with 1 post?

#60 Gudrun

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:45 AM

QUOTE (suline @ 09/01/2013, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A thread from 2010 revived by a member with 1 post?



Seems to be a regular occurrence.  The OP here was dated 06/09.

#61 FEdeRAL

Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:48 AM

QUOTE (suline @ 09/01/2013, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A thread from 2010 revived by a member with 1 post?

Hmmmm....
In any case, great timing, considering all the gender inequality threads that have been going past couple of days.

#62 Mandy12

Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:04 AM

QUOTE (kpingitquiet @ 10/03/2010, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is all a bit strange to me. In the US, where I'm from originally, it's far more unusual or a woman to be a SAHM or even a WAHM. I worked for a high-powered doctors professional association in DC and, in my dept alone (12 of us) we had three moms with five pregnancies between them, and that was just during my three years there! All the moms worked up until delivery, took 12-16 weeks off (remember, there is NO public care or maternity or childcare in the US, it's all through individual job benefits or self-funded), then came back to work. These are some of the most dedicated mothers I've ever known, too.

Mom #1 - Is in her 40s, gave birth to her (1st being 2 yrs old) 2nd by homebirth when we worked together, arranged with Human Resources to let her work from home 1 day per week, and breast pumped every day for the entire time we worked together. Her eldest didn't sleep through the night until age 2.5 and she STILL came to work and did an amazing job. She's a web designer, a solid worker, and one of the moms I admire most. She raises her kids in a natural, organic, healthy home and loves them more than life. Her husband is also one of the most nurturing/co-parenting types I've ever met.

Mom #2 - In her early 30s, is now pregnant with her 3rd child. Hubby takes the kids to daycare and she hauls her butt to the gym at 430am, comes to work by 6am, leaves by 3pm, and spends the rest of the day playing with her kids, managing her house, and enjoying her family. She is, by far, the most dedicated worker in the office, makes full use of flex-time arrangements and never misses a beat. Her husband should help more, and I've told him that lol. But he does do the morning routine and bathe them at night. She somehow still manages to make 20ft cake trains for her son's bday. She is a Program Analyst.

Mom #3 - In her late 30s...should be put up for sainthood. Her eldest was born with severe medical/devel issues and is wheelchair-confined with only 10% movement, next to zero communication skills, and need for constant supervising, and -never- sleeps through the night. She thinks he's the best thing in the world. Her second child was born with a major heart defect and had surgery at 15 days. He's beautifully healthy now. Their third, a little girl, was born in perfect and gorgeous health. She worked her ass off to maintain work and hospital schedules, lobbied the govt to help her aford in-home nurse care for her son, sleeps next to her eldest every night in case the slightest thing happens to him, and does all of this with a relatively supportive dad, backing her up. She occasionally slacks on the work-front, but who wouldnt?! She is a Publication & Marketing Specialist.

These women and their husbands make it work. Through pregnancy, motherhood, illnesses, hard times...they provide needed money and health benefits for their babies and give every non-work moment to dedicated motherhood, making sure they raise healthy, kind, intelligent children. They also make sure to work for a fabulous company that helps them do it all. I admire them, true...but this is the way it is for millions of women all over the US. Not sure why it's such an oddity here.


Gee Wiz!

Hmmm, all married, all professionals, all educated. If they can do it anyone can?? I would suggest that this kind of story is exactly the kind of middle class feminist ideal that leaves those less well off feeling overlooked and dismissed.

The problem isn't feminism so much as it is class and power. So middle class feminists feel they are doing it tough but they ARE doing it they say, and they look at single mothers, the less well educated/empowered and so on and the 'lower' classes and say well 'get a job'. In America for example there are a huge number of single mothers working for minimum wage without workplace protections and provisions for sick leave, they mostly don't have health care and lets not talk about America's attitude to public health no way, and general workplace flexibility is zilch for such women. They are not in a position to lobby their employer for anything. Life choices oh lets not go there.....contraception...choice etc. So when they have to leave their kids at home by themselves in order to go to work don't we tut tut at them for leaving their children unattended.

Middle class, privileged feminists must be applauded for their efforts until that is, they make the assumption that it is possible for everyone to make the choices they did.

Edited by Mandy12, 14 January 2013 - 08:42 AM.


#63 steppy

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:50 AM

What makes you think feminists created this situation? You don't think it had anything to do with being able to pay women less for the same jobs and things like that? You don't think there was a capitalist agenda to any of that? Or that women backfilling jobs during the wars was not the biggest step toward today's situation?

The capitalist way to view this is very simple - having half the population doing unpaid work that is not particularly mentally challenging is terrible for capitalism. Why? Because half of the best minds in your society are not being used and you are working with blunter tools than you have available. It is quite ridiculous to be forced to hire a rather dull man when a very smart woman could be available - and vice versa were the situation reversed. You lock away access to your best resources, which is pretty stupid really and does nothing for the advancement of your business.

There is absolutely a reason that societies who have done away with slavery and embraced concepts like equality have done so well economically.

Edited by steppy, 13 February 2013 - 09:56 AM.


#64 witchesforest

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:57 AM

damn those pesky feminists!  i hope you gave back that stupid no-good vote they got you OP.

#65 Z-girls rock

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:07 AM

I did not understand your post OP.

Why are you blaming 'the feminists' for all these things like 'not warning you about how hard it would be to leave your baby when you went back to work'.
WTF!!

take some responisbility for your life!

I think the problem is that you did not read your 'feminist manuel' well enough. dont you know that 'the feminists' actually instruct that all women demand that their babies are cared for by their husbands who they force to leave their jobs via a process of emasculation and humiliation. This is the only way for 'the feminists' to WIN!

but seriously.

I could not read that dribble you posted where you want to blame 'the feminists' for every percieved wrong in your life. While refusing to understand that no one but YOU is actually percribing how your life should be lived.

You got a uni degree - good for you! Thank the feminists!
You got a good job - good for you! Thank the feminists!
You cant work out a good child care arrangement - poor you - how about discussing things in an equitable way with your husband - isnt he equally responsible for the care of your children?

#66 archyandmehitabel

Posted 21 September 2015 - 01:21 PM

zombie thread

#67 Therese

Posted 21 September 2015 - 01:25 PM

Sorry, a new poster bumped this thread and I have removed their post :)

#68 Mollycoddle

Posted 21 September 2015 - 01:35 PM

View Postmmumm, on 18 June 2009 - 11:01 PM, said:

I don't think the feminists got it wrong, I do think we're not all the way there yet.  I do agree with the points you make about the difficulties of balancing motherhood and career.

Its a slow process but the world is slowly moving toward a family-friendly solution for both men and women.  More flexible hours, more opportunity to work from home.  Fathers being more involved, mothers being more educated.

I would no way prefer to return to a time pre-feminists.  They didn't get it wrong, they started the journey and its up to us to continue it.

This.  You can't even blame them for encouraging the idea that women can 'have it all'.  Even Blind Freddy can see that something has to give,

Edited by Mollycoddle, 21 September 2015 - 01:36 PM.


#69 Datrys

Posted 21 September 2015 - 01:56 PM

View Posttaddie, on 06 December 2009 - 01:02 AM, said:

Personally I can't wait for the day people stop being victims who are wounded by waiting to be told something perfectly obvious. I always knew I'd be the primary carer if I had children, because I make the baby and I have the boobs to feed it. If I'd been earning considerably more than my partner at the time (and was satisfied he would be a good carer) I was prepared to revisit that so the money burden of supporting our lifestyle didn't fall unfairly on him but was glad not to have to.

I don't know about you, but when I was 14, 15, 16 years old, choosing VCE subjects and university courses, I wasn't thinking in these terms.  I hadn't pictured myself having children.  I certainly hadn't thought through the logistics of breastfeeding and childcare.  I don't think it would have been the end of the world if in one of our careers discussions someone had pointed out that these things are worth at least noticing and thinking about.

View PostMollycoddle, on 21 September 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

This.  You can't even blame them for encouraging the idea that women can 'have it all'.  Even Blind Freddy can see that something has to give,

At 35 years old, I nod and agree.  But did even blind Freddy see it at 15?




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