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Twelve months on the breast - normal, natural, healthy


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#26 **BOOM**

Posted 04 August 2009 - 01:46 PM

My comments weren't a personal shot at PP.  I totally agree with you crissy6, what works for me won't work for others & vice versa.

I was only talking about supply & demand and used PP comments in my posts.  

I do think it is important that we have these types of discussion (ie. about supply/demand) not so much for us but for any mum-to-be who is currently doing reading/research on breastfeeding.  When i was pregnant with DD1 - I thought I knew alot about breastfeeding before I had her but it wasn't until afterwards that I learnt the most.  If what we are typing here can help even one women to understand the whole supply/demand thing before their baby arrives - i think that is great. they can go in with this knowledge from the beginning.

I know three women (one being my sister) who didn't know that she needed to express at the feed when she gave my niece formula instead and over a short period of time her milk dried up and niece was on formula full-time. My sister was so upset about this and she even says it now, nearly 11yrs on, how if she knew about the supply/demand thing she would have expressed at that particular feed time.  I am sure some women who know all about the supply/demand thing will roll their eyes and say 'duh' but there are obviously some women out there (ie. 3 that I know) don't know about this or understand it.

Hope my woffle makes sense  biggrin.gif

#27 babyboydec05

Posted 04 August 2009 - 03:19 PM

When I was pregnant with my first child I had the opinion that only lazy mothers fed their babies formula and I frowned upon bottle feeders. It wasn't until the hardest and most awful 6 weeks of my life unfolded where instead of enjoying my baby I was hating motherhood and feeling like a failure that I gave up breastfeeding and formula fed my baby. He is almost 4 and I still have not let go of the guilt.

I wish I had read an article like this when I was pregnant with him. I had only read information which talked about breast being best (no disputing this), and that breastfeeding is the most natural thing a woman can do. I so wanted to breastfeed my baby.

I now have an almost 6 month old and am happy to say that we are still breastfeeding. I can't say that it has been easy this time around either, but from day one I have had a more realistic view of what breastfeeding can be like. Personally, i think this article gives a more balanced view of breastfeeding.

#28 JAPNII

Posted 04 August 2009 - 06:36 PM

QUOTE
What became clear, was that the health of my wife and child was actually not as important to these people as the pursuit of their ideological campaign. She had become mentally ill because of the belief promoted by the health care workers we had been associated with, that she was a bad mother. Not once did anyone say your a good mum and doing your best.


I also think there are some zealots out there. I know when 2nd child wasn't gaining weight over a number of weeks, had many not wet nappies and was skin and bones. I suggested comp ff and was told that the MCHN couldn't make that call because bf was best. Ridiculous.

My issue with the ABA is that they refuse (and yes I have written to them) to change their advice about BF and PND. Everything is placed in a positive light about the two when PANDA states that BF can be positive but also a negative with PND.  I have had a family members becomes sicker because of PND and bf.

I thought this article was a bit more balanced about the good and bad than I have read for a while. Info is king.

#29 Anne078

Posted 04 August 2009 - 09:59 PM

I've got a 14 month old and still breastfeed morning and night. I had no plans to breastfeed this long, but fortunately it's been an easy experience and we both enjoy our feeding snuggles. I'm not sure how long we'll continue. Probably definitely until he's two, so long as I've still got supply and he doesn't self-wean.

I was surprised by the article. It did sound negative to me too. Given the opening paragraph, I'd expected more advocacy. It just read like the 'top 10' for why 12 month breastfeeding doesn't happen more often.

Interested in PP who discontinued breastfeeding 4 months into pregnancy. Wondering why at that stage? I'd be interested to learn more from anyone who has b/fed in pregnancy. I'm thinking of breastfeeding into pregnancy, all being well, and wonder whether it's realistic. Thanks.

#30 funkymumkey56

Posted 04 August 2009 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE
Interested in PP who discontinued breastfeeding 4 months into pregnancy. Wondering why at that stage?

In response to your question, I had my own reasons for stopping breastfeeding when I was 4 months pregnant. I wanted to have a break and allow my body to focus on the developing baby and was not planning to bf them both simultaneously so it seemed like a good time to wean my first baby.
I'm well aware that many mothers continue breastfeeding through pregnancy and feed toddler and baby but this was not my choice.

#31 lucky 2

Posted 05 August 2009 - 09:35 AM

My offence at pp's post was the overriding message in it that health professionals who work with women and babies with bf/feeding problems are ideologically driven and see breast as the "only way".
I must dispute this on behalf of myself and all my colleagues who work with these families in distress on a day to day basis and are driven to help them over come difficulties and have a baby who is well and thriving.
We are driven by our job descriptions, we owe responsibilities as employees, as registered health care providers, by our codes of ethics and practice and ideally by evidenced best practice.
We have legal and ethical responsibilities to our clients and the public in general.
To state that ideology would come before mother and infant safety is a foreign concept for me.
I objected to the broad generalisation regarding BF related Health care providers ("lactation industry").
I don't dispute your experience, but your conclusions and your broad assessment of the problem with health care providers, that they are more committed to ideas than the welfare of their patients.
Thanks for reading if you did! I appreciate getting "that" off my chest.

Edited by luckytwo, 05 August 2009 - 09:37 AM.


#32 Anne078

Posted 05 August 2009 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (funkymumkey56 @ 04/08/2009, 10:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In response to your question, I had my own reasons for stopping breastfeeding when I was 4 months pregnant. I wanted to have a break and allow my body to focus on the developing baby and was not planning to bf them both simultaneously so it seemed like a good time to wean my first baby.
I'm well aware that many mothers continue breastfeeding through pregnancy and feed toddler and baby but this was not my choice.

Of course, fair enough. Thanks for responding. It's good to know it's an option if I feel like it when/if it happens. We'll see how I feel about it then. I can imagine how physically draining it must be nurturing a new life and b/feeding simultaneously.

#33 poss71

Posted 05 August 2009 - 11:10 PM

QUOTE (sophieemily)
Firstly, the way she has typed it it sounds like she was the one who got up & fed the bottle. If someone else got up - then fine, i agree sleep - god i wish my DD would let me at times . but if it is the mother getting up to feed - do the breast then top up with formula. At least this has stimulated the breasts & telling the body to produce milk. Don't you think that makes sense? Makes alot of sense to me - breast first, then topup formula...


Thought I'd respond (politely, of course biggrin.gif ).

Yes I was the one who got up and fed the bottle.  Before I went to bed I prepared a bottle of formula and placed it in the fridge. When she woke at 12am I breastfed her, when she woke at 3.30am I gave her a bottle.

The logistics are, I get DD2 from her cot and place her in the middle of our bed between our pillows. Then, I walk up the hallway to the fridge, remove the bottle and place it in the microwave, count to 50, walk back to bedroom shaking bottle to disperse temp evenly and get back into bed to feed DD2. All up, it takes 2 minutes, give or take.

My reasons for doing so - just so you can understand rather than because I need to justify wink.gif (it doesn't bother me whether or not you agree with my reasons)
1. preventative - in the very early hours we are both sleepy. DD2 has a tendency to pull off slightly which leads to blisters around my nipples meaning I have to change my hold for a few feeds after - so no lying down for instance - and I don't notice her doing it until it's too late when I'm as tired as I was that night.
2. practicality - I get devilishly thirsty when I bf, and that means an hour after the feed I have to wee (in addition to the wee I have to have between sides during the bf itself). I didn't want to wake up at 5am to go to the toilet and then 6.30am or so for yet another feed, so I prioritised the sleep over this breastfeed.
3. knowledge of my body (and DD2's) - It was important on that particular day that DD2 was asleep when DD1 first woke, so that my day could stay on track. I needed to know she would sleep for about 4 hours, which she does if she has a full tummy. I could rely on the volume of milk in the bottle to fill her up, but couldn't guarantee the same for my supply for that particular feed. My supply is best at around 6 - 7am when I can be assured of DD2's fullness - not in the very early hours.
4. an understanding of biology - supply and demand. Supply and demand doesn't work quite the way people on this forum are led to believe. Dropping one breastfeed won't affect your supply immediately, this takes time. As an example, think about how many days it took for your engorgement to subside after your baby slept through a feed for the first time. 2 or 3 days I'd suggest is usual, rather than immediately. Certainly, if I continued to do this every night then the result would be an equivalent reduction in supply to counter that feed no longer being required, but not just on one occasion - although to be clear I will acknowledge that the supply on the next night will be slightly less as the body adjusts (but not the whole feed's worth).

There are probably other aspects that are relevant to the decision. Haven't fully broken it down, but in any case it was an easy one to make because it was completely logical to me.

I hope (if you've read this far!) that it makes a kind of sense, whether or not it is a choice you agree with.

QUOTE (luckytwo)
To state that ideology would come before mother and infant safety is a foreign concept for me.

Some of your posts would indicate otherwise...you certainly don't hesitate to batter new mums in your (idealogically driven) posts, so you appear unlikely to be concerned about the safety of mother and infant re an online mother's mental health.

#34 maroubra2035

Posted 06 August 2009 - 02:55 AM

Luckytwo, Two questions for you - yes or no will suffice as answers please.

1.    In your experience as a 'health care professional' have you ever, even just once, advised a mother that the use of formula to supplement breast milk is ok ?

2.  If the answer to question one is no - can you envisage circumstances where you would actually do so ?

Thanks for your prompt reply

#35 TwistedIvy

Posted 06 August 2009 - 03:40 AM

maroubra - Do you plan on following government / health professional 'best practice' in all aspects of your children's lives, without assessing whether they are actually the best thing for your family and child?

I just simply don't understand why intelligent people (which you come across as one) would not come to the conclusion that breastfeeding wasn't working and simply move onto formula like many many other women choose to do.

My cousin happens to live in the eastern subs. of Sydney as well, and as an intelligent, informed, and loving mother was confident in her choice to formular feed her baby from 17 days old (and never had issues with health professionals either).

I'm baffled!

Edited by Angel and Boo, 06 August 2009 - 04:36 AM.


#36 lucky 2

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:06 AM

PP, the only substitute for human milk is formula, breast milk isn't usually accessible from milk banks (they are few and far between) and some women will use milk from a friend or neighbour, but some don't like to do that. When breast milk volumes are not sufficient/avaliable to nourish/grow a baby a substitute/supplement is required.
I don't think I've mentioned formula in this thread, I didn't bring it up because I assumed that the general population would know the above.
I'm really am astounded that you would ask this question, health care professionals really do not want to end up in the coroners court.

#37 Tomahawk

Posted 06 August 2009 - 11:42 AM

Your comments abut your first wife's experience really resonated with me. I tried breastfeeding with my first and found it difficult but we seemed to be making progress. When we got home it was difficult. I had a midwife visiting me at home to help which was great, what wasn't great was that my son was loosing too much weight. Instead of speaking to someone that might be able to help she said to keep going on the breast and definitely no formula (she was still breastfeeding her 4 year old). As a result he had to go back into hospital for 4 nights on a drip. Very traumatic for a new mum. We had to go into the oncology ward (in a children's hospital) because they didn't have any room anywhere else. My husband was sick with the flu and we didn't want to infect the other kids so he stayed home and my parents were away. I had no one come and see me until the second last day of my stay, therefore my breast feeding suffered and we stopped. I got an infection on my caesarian wound, it was all very very bad.
I realise that it was a very badly handled situation and I can tell you after speaking to me and seeing what situation I was in (they had put me in) they pulled all the stops to make sure I was ok and asked me how they could stop that happening again. Needless to say by that stage I wanted nothing to do with them and asked them to listen to mothers and stop being so bloody dogminded about breastfeeding. My son needed food and if he had been given some we wouldn't have had to go through all we did.
Wow, this has turned into a really long post! I had my second boy 8 months ago and i can say it was a much more pleasant experience, probably cause I knew what was what. That it is my baby and my choice and everyone else can say what they like cause it really doesn't matter what they think. It's a shame that people (here especially, I'm never reading this blog again after hearing the women on here, absolutely terrible!) have to make what is a wonderful experience so guilt ridden and terrible.
Was that really a reply to your post? Probably not but i know what your wife went through.
x
QUOTE (maroubra2035 @ 03/08/2009, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Im a long time reader, first time poster. Father of three, two from my first wife and a newborn from my new partner. My new partner and I now live overseas in a first world asian country where the medical support has been excellent throughout the pregnancy and birth

I will start by saying that I am pro breastfeeding, and am so for all the logical reasons continuously laid out by the ABA and mothercraft nurses ect.

Having been an active participant in the support of the breastfeeding process I believe the article this thread refers to is excellent, in that it presents a balanced view of the reality of breastfeeding.

This balanced view is something the ABA and the lactation industry never presents.

In the case of my first wife, she had a lot of difficulty feeding and consequently our baby was hungry and crying for the first six months of her life. On the advice of the local baby health care clinic and the lactation consultant at The Royal Hospital for Women, Randwick Sydney she refused to use formula at all during this time.

The fatigue and the screams of our baby eventually wore her down and she became post natally depressed, convinced she was a bad mother. Multiple visits to both the hospital and the baby care clinic at Clovelly were unable to help us.

At no point did either the lactation consultant, the local ABA representative, or the baby health care worker suggest that a little formula to supplement the inadequate amount of nourishment the baby was recieving was an option. In fact they specifically advised against it saying it would result in problems with babies development.

Eventually my wife became so depressed she would not leave the house. In desperation I took myself and the baby to the baby health care centre at Clovelly and (again) spoke to the worker, pleading for assistance and to perhaps tell my wife that in the circumstances (mastitis, bleeding, inadequate milk) a little formula was ok.

She refused to do this, stating "just get the child back on the breast, you have to keep going no matter what"

I went to my GP for assistance, but he advised that the hospital's lactation consultant was the best port of call. I have subsequently found out that the ABA has threatened legal action against doctors who are pro formula, although I don't know if this was a factor in my case.

What became clear, was that the health of my wife and child was actually not as important to these people as the pursuit of their ideological campaign. She had become mentally ill because of the belief promoted by the health care workers we had been associated with, that she was a bad mother. Not once did anyone say your a good mum and doing your best.

I have a colleague from work whose wife was actually hospitalised for post natal depression caused by breastfeeding issues. Even whilst in hospital she was harrassed because she was unable to feed her baby from the breast

And this is where they lost me and my support. Although I think it is a great thing to promote and support breastfeeding, but the campaign to do so goes to far in this country and ideology gets in the way of practicality.

The irony of this is that in the long run, it actually turns people off breastfeeding rather the promotes it. People eventually can tell when they are having the wrong thing done to them.

Where we are in Asia now, the maternity hospital has promoted a mix of formula and breastmilk from the get go.

My partner has plenty of milk, so we just use formula for one feed during the night and milk for the rest. Baby is healthy and has put on 400 grams in the 10 days he has been alive.

Frankly I am glad we are not in Australia where we would be made to feel as if we were child abusers for using even a little formula.

This issue has bothered me for many years now, thanks to the forum for letting me get it of my chest.

If you are a new or impending mother who has problems similar to mine then all I can say is that there is a limit. Enough can be enough, and breastfeeding is no different to any other activity in life in that when it becomes damaging to the health or you and those around you it needs to be discontinued.


#38 maroubra2035

Posted 06 August 2009 - 05:31 PM

Angel and Boo.

For someone with strong beliefs about BF (still feeding at 2.5) for you to express 'bafflement' on how myself and others had the experiences we did is playing ducks and drakes with this issue.

As new parents, we wanted the best for our child and trusted the advice we were given. We were told that it will get better, but it didn't and when it didn't we kept thinking that the improvement was just around the corner.

I have received many PM's and emails since my initial posting.  Without exception the senders communicate situations similar to mine. I have replied to all and encouraged to post on this thread. One poster told me she had previously tried to raise the issue but suffered so many abusive PM's from other posters that she is too scared to appear on this forum on the issue anymore.

My firstborn is 9 now. Happy, healthy and well adjusted. If I have another child in Australia I will be keeping the ABA and lactation consultants well away from my wife and baby I can tell you

Edited by maroubra2035, 06 August 2009 - 05:34 PM.


#39 maroubra2035

Posted 06 August 2009 - 05:32 PM

Kath 07

Thanks for sharing your experience. I applaud your courage and strength of character

#40 geeboo

Posted 06 August 2009 - 06:10 PM

What a fantastic perspective. I totally agree that there is a point beyond which the health of the child AND mother need to come first.

I am pro-breastfeeding but I also believe that it isn't for everyone and get frustrated by those for whom breastfeeding  does work for judging others who have challenges.

I think just about every woman who has breastfeed knows that the first 6 weeks or so are marred with the typical damaged nipples, supply issues (whether too much or too little), letting down problems, blocked milk ducts etc. but there are really problems that can continue beyond the starting phase and too often people are judged harshly because 'they didn't give it a proper go'.

I breastfed my daughter exclusively for 6 months and then weened at 9 months. I have to say weening was the best thing I ever did. I suffered PND as a result of hormone imbalances that completely disappeared when I stopped breastfeeding. My husband pleaded with me to stop earlier, but I wouldn't listen because I felt so much pressure to continue... I had a strange (totally illogical) feeling that to give my child formula was a kin to feeding her poison. The moment my milk went away I stopped wanting to kill myself, stopped wanting to give my child away (I believed that being with me was harmful to her because I was such a bad mother) and began to see life as wonderful, full of options and started to enjoy my child and life as a mother... I really did become a better mother because I stopped crying all of the time!

I am due to have my second child in 2 months. This time around my husband and I have agreed that I will not breastfeed for longer than 2 months for the health of the whole family.

I found the article to be honest and not nearly as one-sided as the ABA and other consultants out there.


QUOTE (maroubra2035 @ 03/08/2009, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Im a long time reader, first time poster. Father of three, two from my first wife and a newborn from my new partner. My new partner and I now live overseas in a first world asian country where the medical support has been excellent throughout the pregnancy and birth

I will start by saying that I am pro breastfeeding, and am so for all the logical reasons continuously laid out by the ABA and mothercraft nurses ect.

Having been an active participant in the support of the breastfeeding process I believe the article this thread refers to is excellent, in that it presents a balanced view of the reality of breastfeeding.

This balanced view is something the ABA and the lactation industry never presents.

In the case of my first wife, she had a lot of difficulty feeding and consequently our baby was hungry and crying for the first six months of her life. On the advice of the local baby health care clinic and the lactation consultant at The Royal Hospital for Women, Randwick Sydney she refused to use formula at all during this time.

The fatigue and the screams of our baby eventually wore her down and she became post natally depressed, convinced she was a bad mother. Multiple visits to both the hospital and the baby care clinic at Clovelly were unable to help us.

At no point did either the lactation consultant, the local ABA representative, or the baby health care worker suggest that a little formula to supplement the inadequate amount of nourishment the baby was recieving was an option. In fact they specifically advised against it saying it would result in problems with babies development.

Eventually my wife became so depressed she would not leave the house. In desperation I took myself and the baby to the baby health care centre at Clovelly and (again) spoke to the worker, pleading for assistance and to perhaps tell my wife that in the circumstances (mastitis, bleeding, inadequate milk) a little formula was ok.

She refused to do this, stating "just get the child back on the breast, you have to keep going no matter what"

I went to my GP for assistance, but he advised that the hospital's lactation consultant was the best port of call. I have subsequently found out that the ABA has threatened legal action against doctors who are pro formula, although I don't know if this was a factor in my case.

What became clear, was that the health of my wife and child was actually not as important to these people as the pursuit of their ideological campaign. She had become mentally ill because of the belief promoted by the health care workers we had been associated with, that she was a bad mother. Not once did anyone say your a good mum and doing your best.

I have a colleague from work whose wife was actually hospitalised for post natal depression caused by breastfeeding issues. Even whilst in hospital she was harrassed because she was unable to feed her baby from the breast

And this is where they lost me and my support. Although I think it is a great thing to promote and support breastfeeding, but the campaign to do so goes to far in this country and ideology gets in the way of practicality.

The irony of this is that in the long run, it actually turns people off breastfeeding rather the promotes it. People eventually can tell when they are having the wrong thing done to them.

Where we are in Asia now, the maternity hospital has promoted a mix of formula and breastmilk from the get go.

My partner has plenty of milk, so we just use formula for one feed during the night and milk for the rest. Baby is healthy and has put on 400 grams in the 10 days he has been alive.

Frankly I am glad we are not in Australia where we would be made to feel as if we were child abusers for using even a little formula.

This issue has bothered me for many years now, thanks to the forum for letting me get it of my chest.

If you are a new or impending mother who has problems similar to mine then all I can say is that there is a limit. Enough can be enough, and breastfeeding is no different to any other activity in life in that when it becomes damaging to the health or you and those around you it needs to be discontinued.



#41 TwistedIvy

Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:10 PM

maroubra

QUOTE
For someone with strong beliefs about BF (still feeding at 2.5) for you to express 'bafflement' on how myself and others had the experiences we did is playing ducks and drakes with this issue.

As new parents, we wanted the best for our child and trusted the advice we were given. We were told that it will get better, but it didn't and when it didn't we kept thinking that the improvement was just around the corner.


That would be my second child you are referring to, not my *first* child who I chose partially bottle fed from birth and felt totally confident in doing so (and nor did anyone 'make' me feel guilty). Own your choices.

And I'm curious as to what makes someone who breastfeeds until their child is 2.5yo have 'strong' feelings about it. It's a food source. Do you have 'strong feelings' about what you fed your toddler? Wheetbix for example?

Edited by Angel and Boo, 06 August 2009 - 07:12 PM.


#42 maroubra2035

Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:59 PM

By strong beliefs I meant I applaud your commitment to feed young Angus there for such a long time. Hard work, but quite obviously worthwhile. To be honest I had little knowledge of the concept of extended BF before doing some research this afternoon on the web. I found a woman who is BF her 8 year old in the UK and I applaud her commitment as well.

Its difficult to 'own your choices' as you say when people who you are supposed to put trust in tell you you are a bad parent if you don't BF.

As you might have noticed this has been the experience of many of the other posters of this thread.

I think the ABA in particular has been shown for what it really is now - well intentioned, but blinded by ideology of breast or not at all.

As far as I am concerned my point is proven and the matter is closed. Good luck to you all

Edited by maroubra2035, 06 August 2009 - 10:01 PM.


#43 Xanthipe

Posted 07 August 2009 - 02:12 PM

If you are pregnant and the article turned you off, don't worry too much.  I had a cracked nipple at the start, an excessive supply and a tendency to leak.  It's really no big deal.  Think how much pain you put up with without thinking when you're wearing in a new pair of shoes! I'm still feeding at 10 months and will keep going as long as my baby wants it (well, within reason!). I work three days a week, and while I did need to express at first, by about 8 months my baby was eating solids and drinking water and cows milk so I found I didn't need to express for the times she was away from me.  And my breasts adjusted easily.
That whole 'breast pads in the office drawer' line is rubbish.  I had HEAPS of milk, which would squirt from the other breast while I was feeding if I didn't have a breast pad in, or from both if I so much as thought about how lovely my baby is, but it's not like my life was dominated by breast pad changing. Now my baby has teeth, and while she has accidently bitten me a few times (ouch!) she's getting the hang of feeding without nipping (just don't yell when you get bitten, it just makes them laugh and they think it's a game!). I've found breast feeding easy and enjoyable, despite some initial pain and the odd misplaced squirt. I think the midwives make such a big deal of it they scare women off. They need to lighten up and have a laugh. It's just boobs and milk, for goodness sake!

#44 MissST

Posted 07 August 2009 - 06:13 PM

The trouble with the breast feeding proponents is that they usually have very good milk supply and generally it is effortless for them. I think they under estimate how much of a problem under supply for most women is. Alot of women HAVE to back up with formula because our babies are still HUNGRY. The breast feeding association is setting the bar too high – Exclusive BF for the first 6 months of life is all they need. HELLO – not for the majority of women I have spoken to when I actually did dig around and ask questions. 6 months of BF only would have left my child starving. I started solids at 4 months and my son could not stop eating food since. He at 7 months is still in the 50-60th percentile for his age – so I am not over feeding. If i had BF solely till 6 months he would have ended up starving under weight and crying. 7 of the 8 women in my mother's groups started solids before 6 months. Avg was 5months

I was told in classes that babies can cry up to 3-4 hours in total in a day. And that this is ‘normal’. My son has never cried that much in a day. I seriously think the babies that cry that much must be starved from lack of nutrition due to mothers that persist in BF exclusively – martys for the cause. I think the babies that cry incessently like that the mother seriously has to consider whether her supply is low and if her child is STARVING. Yes it is about the BABY and if the child is STARVING and we cannot go to the village wet nurse then I for one will say it – thank god for formula and that we live in the modern age where the formulas mean we don’t have to run like idiots in our city villages looking for the local milk maid (aka wet nurse).

I tried everything under the sun and could only produce about half of what my son needed. And I mean I tried everything. I exclusively pumped every 2-3 hours for a week to increase my supply and to see exactly how much was coming out. I still only ever made half of what he needed. I was feeling like crap and a ‘failure’ and then my own father and mother in law set me straight.

Many years ago when a woman did not have enough milk in my dad’s village they would supplement with the village wet nurse – you know those women that are just blessed with abundant milk. Believe it or not BF proponents – nature does not always work to supply and demand for all women. So that you will produce exactly enough milk for your baby is a total myth. I saw it on myself and many of my friends and the women in our mother’s group.

As for my mother in law in her village those who did not have enough milk or a wet nurse back up fed their baby – wait for it – cow’s milk. Yes from birth as a back-up. And guess what. All her 6 children 40-50 years on are here still living and breathing with no allergies.

And you know what – thank god for formula. Cause if there is no wet nurse, no goat or cow in the village then our babies do not have to starve. You know 100 years ago babies use to get sick and die. Maybe lack of good milk from any source or a formula was a contributing factor.

So BF proponents. Nature does not always provide. Stop setting the bar so high and making me feel less woman. I am sick of it. I

Some babies out there are going really really hungry due to the BF only push. People have been supplementing in history when there was no such thing as formula. Nature does not always fully provide to every mother. And where nature cannot fully provide – baby was at risk of hunger and death.

Thank god for the modern age.

BF proponents – lower that bar and stop telling us that all women are capable of producing exactly enough milk for their babies. IT IS NOT TRUE for a bigger number of mothers than they would care to admit as it kills their BF only message.



#45 TwistedIvy

Posted 07 August 2009 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE
lets face the facts.. once u figure breastfeeding out.. its still hard.. the constant feeding.. the energy u need to have it all working properlly,, the low milk supply in the afternoon,., i mean if we need a good nights sleep to have great flow.. its not perfectly possible if u are still getting up 3 times a night to BF.


For a lot of women (not all!) breastfeeding IS easy once you get over those initial hurdles.

I thought getting up at night to feed a baby was part and parcel of being a parent?

Edited by lilymurray, 08 August 2009 - 11:07 PM.


#46 TwistedIvy

Posted 07 August 2009 - 07:27 PM

QUOTE
The trouble with the breast feeding proponents is that they usually have very good milk supply and generally it is effortless for them. I think they under estimate how much of a problem under supply for most women is.


And the problem with women who don't breastfeed because of difficulties, is that you think that anyone who DOES successfully breastfeed has done so easily. This is not so. I know many stories, and have many friends, who have overcome massive hurdles to be successful breastfeeders. In fact one of my best friends (now breastfeeding her 3rd baby), has one nipple about 3 sizes larger than the other due to massive scarring from split nipples when she had her first baby.

Or my other friend from Darwin who had twins at 25 weeks gestation, and then managed to express and breastfeed them for two months while they were in *different hospitals* in Melbourne.

So no, YOU shouldn't assume that breastfeeding proponets have had it 'easy'.

#47 TwistedIvy

Posted 07 August 2009 - 07:30 PM

QUOTE
My son has never cried that much in a day. I seriously think the babies that cry that much must be starved from lack of nutrition due to mothers that persist in BF exclusively �" martys for the cause. I think the babies that cry incessently like that the mother seriously has to consider whether her supply is low and if her child is STARVING.


A lot of babies scream. My first son screamed day and night for the first 8 weeks. His weight gains were fine though (actually he climbed from the 50-95% for weight).

Surely weight gain is a better indicator of whether a baby is starving or not?

#48 bejane

Posted 07 August 2009 - 07:54 PM

maroubra2035 I applaud your posts. I have a 2 1/2 year old and a 4 month old, have and am breastfeeding both successfully and with no problems, but have seen friends have devastating problems breastfeeding. Two in particular had a great deal of trouble breastfeeding but persevered, to the ultimate detriment of both themselves and their babies. In one case, the baby had severe food intolerances, which meant all the mother could eat were effectively beans and potatoes. All the health professionals she saw told her she had to persist with the breastfeeding for the good of her baby, until one locum GP told her that she had to put her baby on formula immediately or she would be in danger of developing anorexia. The other persisted, with the detailed advice of BReastfeeding Association professionals, for four months until the drastically low weight gains of her child were recognised and she was persuaded to move to formula. In both cases these women felt that to use formula was a betrayal of their child and would be a devastating start to the child's life. I wholeheartedly agree that breastmilk is best, but realistically, there are millions of people the world over who were raised exclusively on formula (good friends and family included) and they haven't suffered for it. I think that health professionals need to be realistic about breastfeeding, and think more wholly about related problems, rather than focus just on this one aspiration.



#49 babyboydec05

Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:10 PM

QUOTE
My son has never cried that much in a day. I seriously think the babies that cry that much must be starved from lack of nutrition due to mothers that persist in BF exclusively – martys for the cause. I think the babies that cry incessently like that the mother seriously has to consider whether her supply is low and if her child is STARVING


I have lots of girlfriends with babies some who breastfeed, some who bottle feed and some that do a combination of both. All the babies have different personalities however the one that by far cries the most is one that has been formula fed from day one. She is definitely not starving. I think this is a really broad and uninformed statement to make.

Edited by babyboydec05, 07 August 2009 - 08:12 PM.


#50 marvin2

Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:25 PM

This article has inspired me to comment,   particularly in reference to its discussion about the difficulties of returning to work whilst breast feeding.  

I have recently returned to doing contract work both from home and in an office after my second child.   I fed my first child for 13 months despite returning to full time study when she was 3 months old.   With both my girls I have breast fed whilst they have gone to childcare two days a week.  

I breast fed for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that my first daughter had a cows milk allergy.   Despite the hassle of having to express milk during my time away from baby it was still worked out to be the easiest and best method of feeding for us.  

Whilst I think that this article captures some of the challenges and necessities of returning to work whilst breast feeding,   the answers it provided to some of the difficulties were less realistic in today's society.  
The answer to the impediment of returning to work is that apparently your employer is obliged to accommodate your needs at this time   :   “This can comprise scheduled lactation breaks throughout the day and providing a suitable room (not the toilets) for expressing”.   There are two accommodative measures suggested here but it is the latter that I would really like to “lift the lid” on.  

I can only speak from my personal knowledge however I don’t know of any business who are able to provide a dedicated space for expressing milk.  

When I was studying the university suggested using their parents room for expressing milk.   There was no lock on the door so they gave me a sign at the information counter that read “room in use”.    Unfortunately the parents room seemed to also double as a secretive coffee station for staff and knowledgeable students. On one occasion the door opened despite the sign on the door, a non-english speaking student came rushing in to grab a cup of hot water.   Because I didn’t know how to write “room in use” in any other languages I fashioned my own sign along which included a graphic that looked like a pair of poached eggs.   While this seemed to work better I remain unimpressed with the fact that one of the largest university campuses in the country is so ill-equipped to deal with the day to day needs of breast feeding mothers.  

With returning to work this time I use either a public “parents room” near by to the office or if I cannot afford the 5 minutes to walk across the road, I use the toilets.  

At this point I feel implored to discuss this concept of a “parents room” as a place to express milk or breast feed your child.   A parents room is usually situated amongst the toilet rooms,   sometimes has a toilet and always has a change mat and nappy bins.     In recent years I have been impressed that parents rooms seem to have become larger and often include comfy seats in which you might feed your child (if the arm chair is wide enough).   However there are still a few fundamental problems which make me want to avoid lingering in the parents room for the purposes of breast feeding or expressing.      

First of all the parents rooms are afforded the same ventilation status as a toilet.   That is they are negatively pressurized ,  the air is sucked out at this point and the new air provided from the rest of the complex.   This is sensible for a toilet or nappy changing facility as it prevents bad air invading the rest of the building.     However if you couple this type of ventilation with between ten and twenty very smelly nappy bins it hardly describes an inviting environment where you yourself might choose to reside for 30 minutes to an hour,  much less where you would choose to eat or prepare food.  

While I applaud the fact that many of the public facilities have become bigger,  with more private compartments and some attempts at modern décor, they still remain a long way short of inviting.    I am forced to use these facilities for my “lactation breaks” because while breast feeding in public may well be accepted (in most places) using your breast pump is definitely not  “the done thing” (nor do I think it should be).  

When I am rushing to a deadline at work however I do sometimes need to just rush off to the toilets to get the job done.  For the most part I don’t mind this providing not too many bad smells invade the room.   I have had a couple of occasions when I have felt the need to explain to a colleague what it was I was doing in the toilet cubicle as either my manual breast pump has been squeaky or it has made some embarrassing  farting sound that couldn’t otherwise be explained.  
    
I find this concept of “providing a dedicated space” for breast feeding difficult.  I cannot fathom a situation where I would really like to colour the negotiations of my employment with the very personal requirements of breast feeding.    I would prefer to keep discussion about breast management away from the work environment and I’m sure many other women feel the same.  

The article therefore for me falls short of tackling the issue of how to improve and encourage women to breast feed upon returning to work.    It seems to me that it is this provision of facilities to allow women the privacy to breast feed or express that is the biggest problem.    The issue of how to overcome this cannot be tackled on a case by case basis where a business that has a breast feeding mother must provide the facility.   The provision of an extra room is an imposition on any type of commercial business and may be impossible for a small business.  

I would wager that the solution may lie in the provision of a greater number of better parenting rooms as a statutory requirement similar to the provision of toilets and amenities in buildings.    Building regulations are now very prescriptive about the number and specification of disabled access facilities for instance.   Unfortunately the provision of proper parenting facilities are often not a requirement for buildings at all – and if they are they are present they are offered as a good will gesture and not designed to any rigorous specification.

Conclusively I feel that if changes are going to be implemented at a government level that focussing on improving the amenity for parenting within the built environment would be far more effective than subsidizing breast pumps.  





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