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Secondary infertility
Two articles published by EB

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34 replies to this topic

#26 ♥Penny♥

Posted 04 August 2009 - 11:51 PM

I just wanted to say to anyone reading or following this post that I in no way think badly of anyone undergoing AC to conceive a second, third, fourth child. I am sorry if what I said came across that way. I think my reaction was more specifically regarding those who have numerous children, as in the first poster, and who then also compare their pain with those with no children, which I just believe is impossible.

#27 Want2beDad

Posted 05 August 2009 - 12:09 AM

Hello everyone.

I am the party that out of the 98% of the previous posts was forgotten about. I am the partner of Mel333.

There are several issues happening here and I'll try to cover them all.

1. Topic - the topic is "secondary infertility". Secondary infertility is almost a medical term, coined to represent the group of people who are not infertile due to natural causes. Thereby, it is to be expected people who have had children naturally would post.  Someone has mentioned in one of the posts they did not want to see this or read about children. The reason this topic was started is so people could express their point of view, you do not have to click on this topic to read it. The choice is yours so you should live with it.

2. Infertility - Mel333 and myself fall under both categories. As she has mentioned previously I have problems with my sperm and thereby even if she did not have a TL we would not be able to concieve naturally.

3. Money - Mel333 did not make a distinction that money is in any case a driving force for IVF. Not from the parents side anyways - perhaps from the doctors. Yes, we are financially well off and we are able to afford IVF, if we weren't perhaps we wouldn't be able to do it, or perhaps we would work 3 different shifts just to scrape some money in for it.

4. Pain - a lot of people here have mentioned the pain is not the same. That is possible. But how can you really tell? Everyone experiences pain differently. Does a person that has lost a father experience the grief less than a person that has lost a very close friend? Can you really answer that truthfully? I don't think so. Is the pain from not conceiving in SIF different from not concieving in PIF? Possibly. Possibly not. Who can tell? We all have our reasons for wanting children. When that reason is not satisfied who is to say whether it feels less or more painful than the next persons?

5. Children - yes, Mel has had 4 children already, but she has also had 3 miscarriages. She has experienced a great amount of pain. I have had no children. Sure, I love the 4 greatly and I am a father to them (even though they don't see it that way sometime rolleyes.gif ), but I have never experienced being in a theatre room with my partner, holding her hand, wiping the sweat of her forehead and telling her "It's going to be OK honey" while she struggles to deliver another life into the world. I never had the experience of looking into that baby's eyes and seeing myself in them and knowing my world there and then has changed forever and I have a world of responsibility on my shoulders now. From almost every post I was the forgotten one. When Mel and I get a negative result is my pain any less then yours because Mel had 4 children? I don't think so. Just because I have to take care of them, does not mean I don't wake in the middle of the night "hearing" a baby's cry and then end up crying myself, because I realised I imagined it?

I think, from what I've read, is that everyone is losing their way. Everyone is angry without even realising why they're angry. I get the impression that people are venting and they found a post they can get all their feelings out on, because a lot of the posts are completely illogical and lack reason. But that happens, it is to be expected with everything we all are going through. The experiences we all went through are varied. Nobody really knows what the next person is going through. The people that have posted comments seem to use the logic that "if you've had kids, IVF failure won't hurt as much". This logic is incorrect. You can apply same logic and say "You've lost your dad, so losing your mum won't hurt as much". Nobody can judge a person's loss or grief. Be it SIF or PIF, of any kind of abbreviation you can figure. A person's grief is a person's grief, and nobody has a say otherwise.

My opinion in all of this, is that people need to cool down. I know for a fact that Mel333 did not want to insult anyone. She was merely putting her experiences and her view on the board for a discussion as relevant to the topic. If people weren't sure whether insult was meant, they should ask instead of creating more havoc and conversation can flow with possibly some good in it.

This is my first and last post in this thread or any other. If people's opinions cannot be respected (whether they are valid or not) then websites like these should not be used.

I wish everyone all the best in their quest for parenthood, whether SIF or PIF, whether you're trying 1st time or for the 100th time, whether you're doing it naturally or through assisted conception. It is a long hard road whichever way you look at it. There is pain and there is sorrow and I hope soon enough you'll all experience the happiness of a child.


#28 monique13

Posted 05 August 2009 - 07:26 AM

Im sorry OP I don't belive there is enough articles out there about Primary infertilty out there.  If you look through the rest of the forum and look at the fuss being made about home birthing and compare it to the budget changes with IVF, its really appalling.  Many of the general public see articles with Secondary Infertilty and IVF not primary (probably due to the lovely spin of the Krudd government).  Im sorry but I believe that these stories are more important atm if we want to keep IVF for the majority of Australians.
PIF and SIF are probably very similar type of grief- but SIF dont have the added dimension of will i ever have children question floating around in their head.
Atm Im thinking of some song lyrics that really sum it up, 'The only worse number than 1 is none".

Edited by monique13, 05 August 2009 - 11:52 AM.

#29 karmapolice

Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:35 AM

I saw this thread yesterday and wasn't in the mood to post, but I can't help myself now.

1. Mel333 your original post was insensitive and perhaps a little ignorant (given where you were posting). Your further posts only served to exacerbate the angst your first post caused. I am finding it hard to believe that your partner then posted in your defence (not altogether successfully!) when the best approach would have been to eat some humble pie and accept that you blundered in here like a blind elephant.

2. In no way is the pain of remaining childless comparable to the pain of TTC subsequent children. To insist otherwise is to have one's head firmly implanted in one's bottom. This is not the same as denying that there is any pain associated with those TTC subsequent children, and I have never read this sentiment anywhere on these boards. I have however seen the reverse expressed (that TTC subsequent children is the same as remaining childless), and more than once.

I too question the sensitivity of EB Ally to post this thread here, knowing what has transpired in previous discussions.

3. OT but if I see another thread about fighting the demise of home birth I will throw my laptop out the wndow. Sure, some women may lose the "choice" to birth at home, but the cuts to IVF funding could result in some couples losing the ability to have children at all. I find it hard to muster sympathy for the small number of women impacted by the inability to have a hippy/trippy birth experience because regardless of the venue, they will have a child.

#30 Posh_Girl

Posted 05 August 2009 - 09:02 AM

karmapolice = massive girl crush.  wub.gif

#31 ~bertie~

Posted 05 August 2009 - 09:13 AM

n some ways having a child, you realise how amazing it is and not being able to repeat it is right up there with not having one at all."

A ridiculous  and hurtful statement to your fellow EB AC Member  nno.gif

I understand you are hurting but there is no comparision..... no matter what you think..

Can you imagine the hurt you would feel if you had none of your children? You can't tell me that would hurt more than not being able to conceive this time around  huh.gif

edit : to remove sig

Edited by The Cookies and Cream Monster, 05 August 2009 - 09:16 AM.

#32 Little~Oggy

Posted 05 August 2009 - 06:26 PM

I think one of the issues with this thread was Mel's reply (the 2nd post) and I doubt it would have turned out the way it did if she had restrained herself - I know what it is like to post out of anger and grief but I also know that at times it is important to weigh your words up carefully and consider what you post. It's a real shame she couldn't do this or is even now unable to admit that she could have weighed her words more carefully.

BabyG and our other kind SIF's you have made thoughtful and considerate posts.

Mariamsmum's as always your thoughtful posts break/melt my heart.

Jules I agree with you about the PIF in the articles over the SIF.

W&P people will never really know the heartache we will carry forever within ourselves. They simply can't understand.

Want2beDad while it might be tough not to have a birth child born to you there are likely to be moments were you do see yourself in the eyes of the children you are raising. I know that my own father (adoptive father - mother's remarriage) sees me in his own eyes all the time - it might not be a genetic match but it is there. It might not be the easy path being a step-parent (and I know this now from personal experience in the same way you do) but it still a path of being a parent - maybe not what you or I hold as ideal or what we want but it is still there.

Edited by Little~Oggy, 05 August 2009 - 06:34 PM.

#33 BeYOUtiful

Posted 05 August 2009 - 06:38 PM

*********children in gen mentioned*********** (just for Pundelina tongue.gif ) and to show respect

KP well said.

Want2beDad ~ I can totally understand how you feel with regards to having no children.  My DP also has 4 children.  I love them dearly and can now not imagine my life without them in my life.  However I have never experienced the bond with my DP that having a child together brings.  I have never seen his face after giving birth to our child.  I have never watched him proudly playing with our child.

These are the things I think about alot, and are my reasons I believe answer your question
Pain - a lot of people here have mentioned the pain is not the same. That is possible. But how can you really tell?

as well as my DP does not need to consider dying childless, I do, regularly.

I understand the yearning to have a sibling for a child, I really do.  I have had to consider it, and take on board it will be our reality if successful.

#34 Ms Cranky Pants

Posted 05 August 2009 - 09:27 PM

Just another example of why we need to have two seperate boards...

The audacity of some posters really astounds me.

KP - love lady.  Love.

#35 .Ally.

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:49 AM

For clarification's sake regarding these articles and definitions the author has passed this on:
Access Australia gives the following definition: A couple is defined as having secondary infertility if, despite having achieved a pregnancy in the past (which may or may not have resulted in the birth of a child), they are unable to do so again, after a year or more of regular, unprotected intercourse.

I posted these articles here believing the AC forums were the most appropriate place to feature them.

I also gave the members the benefit of the doubt that these articles might be discussed in a less hurtful manner. Much like the constant SAHM vs working mums arguments, nothing is to be gained from wasting energy 'competing' against one another. Surely we can find commonalities and support each other. Despite the differences surely women going through AC whatever their circumstances have more in common than those who've not experienced difficulties TTC? Perhaps my personal opinion is a naive one, if so I apologise.

Seeing as this thread has derailed, I will lock it.

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