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Question for parent who DON'T vaccinate


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#51 ikeaqueen

Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:44 PM

DS2 reacted to his immunisations, every time.  They seemed to really take everything out of him and he ended up in hospital for a month with bronchiolitis - admissions are usually 2-4 days for the same thing.  The DOCTORS told me delaying was a good idea.

We delayed with DS3 until he was 2yo,  he had enough going on with reflux and allergies to even think about throwing another thing in the mix and I was quite concerned after DS2s reactions.  We discussed it with the GP and they were fine with me delaying them.  He ended up with bronchiolitis too at the same age as DS2 but pulled through it without a hospital stay and without steroids.

DS4 we skipped the birth one but caught up at 2 months old.  The scariness has worn off a little from DS2s so I'm a bit more relaxed about it all.

DS3 had his last lot about a month ago and reacted.  He had a huge lump in his arm and the top half of his arm was red and swollen (think double the size), he ran a temp for 4 days and was very tired and out of breath.  He has egg, dairy and soy allergies so we're thinking something in it didn't agree with him.

So... To answer the OP...

YES, I would vaccinate is moving overseas.  I would probably even look in to EXTRA vaccinations also.

#52 Mumsyto2

Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:45 PM

QUOTE (SimplySarah @ 10/12/2010, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would you change your mind about vaccination if moving overseas where there is a almost no care available?

If I chose not to vaccinate I would not move - simple.

In addition, vacc aside, what is your plan if other issues should arise requiring medical care - appendicitis and so forth?

#53 Arthur or Martha

Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:47 PM

DS2 is unable to have the Whooping cough vaccine, it's contraindicated for uncontrolled epileptics.
He had an alternative schedule and had all the rest, so they must be able to some vaccines seperately.

Margaret

#54 red door

Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:55 PM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 10/12/2010, 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SimplySarah, if you want to take your children to a 3rd world country unvaccinated, you have to accept the morbidity and mortality from infectious disease that children in these countries are subject to. It is a miserable thought. Thank goodness for vaccinations and first-world medicine. You wouldn't remember before the polio vaccine was available - my father was a child and he remembers the long line of parents and children, lined up for several street blocks, waiting to get vaccinated.



I agree whole heartedly in regards to acknowledging and being aware of the stats of a third world country. I think those of us in Australia who choose not to vaccinate go off research/ findings that are relevant to our developed nations (ie, chances of complications from chickenpox versus potential for harm from toxins used in ect ect), so it goes without saying you would have to base your choice around what the risks are in that particular country are.

Edited by red door, 10 December 2010 - 11:01 PM.


#55 Mumsyto2

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:02 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/12/2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are a lot less vaccinations on the schedules of underdeveloped countries.  They don't see it necessary to include ridiculous things like Rotavirus and chickenpox.  Sometimes having less money does lead to more sensible decisions in my opinion.

Noooo, it is not that they have made a decision to exclude these. They simply don't have the funds so that decision is made for them . Whether they wanted them desperately or did not want them at all - it is simply not even a decision they have the choice to make.  

I work with people who have done stints in third world countries and have heard stories of how mothers treck for days with their babies through dangerous territory to get to 'clinics' to have their kids vaccinated as that is the importance those individuals place on it.

#56 Azadel

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:03 PM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 10/12/2010, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Azadel - No health care is compulsory and I would not petition to abolish an individual's autonomy for any medical procedure. However, I do wish that I could abolish misinformation and scaremongering around vaccinations (including the AVN and any website that talks about "toxins", "heavy metals" and "chemicals" in vaccines). I don't think it is possible to understand the complexities of vaccinations without a extremely good understanding of immunology. Interestingly, I have never met an Immunologist or researcher in immunology who is anti-vax.


I consider myself a rational, thoughtful atheist  with a working knowledge of the Bible, and why I do not agree with it, without a degree in theology.

I wouldn't ask a minister if I should become an atheist. I would feel the same way about the views of an immunologist regarding immunisation.


#57 RichardParker

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:14 PM

OP, if you're really that worried about what a vaccine, administered by health professionals in Australia, might do to your kids, then don't take them to a third world country.  Seriously, if they're not vaccinated, you won't be able to wash them in the water there in case they swallow some, catch something, and die.

Edited by Greenbag, 10 December 2010 - 11:17 PM.


#58 Azadel

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:26 PM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 11/12/2010, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Azadel, the comparison is untenable. You can have an opinion on theology because it is not evidence based, your opinion is as valid as the priest's opinion because it can never be scientifically tested. Any statement about vaccinations can be scientifically assessed and evaluated, and you can't insist on having an opinion that contradicts the evidence.


It could be called a spurious comparison yes. Or it could be said that the weight of scientific opinion at this point in time amounts to divine reasoning - yes, they have the answers in favour of vacc, but what questions are they asking?

Rosiebird amongst the many voices who challenge me on my views on vaccination yours I respect coming from a place of reason, but I still have questions I am not sure I can ever get balanced answers to. I understand the failures of the AVN. But current medical thinking on vaccination is I believe not foolproof either.

And the op wanted to hear from others with doubts.

#59 Natural_mum

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:29 PM

I am neither pro or anti vac what I am is someone who believes that they have there place.  I don't vac for things that are not so common in the location I live in but if I was going somewhere that those diseases were very common then yes I would get it done.

#60 got my tinsel on

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:31 PM

And the answers from the non-vaxers so far have been:

a) yes to vaccination - though not necessarily all
b) don't go, therefore avoiding the greatly increased likelihood of disease and death due    to non vaccination.  

Strangely no-one has said "Yeah go, don't vaccinate, have a great time, send me a postcard!"

Wonder why?!?!?!?!

#61 Azadel

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:31 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 11/12/2010, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No she wants opinions from other people who don't vaccinate.  She wants some guidance from like-minded people about what they might do in her situation.  There's not a lot of point asking people who vaccinate in Australia if they'd vaccinate overseas because of course they would.  She wants to know if people who don't vaccinate here would decide differently if faced with a different situation.

Is that really so hard to understand?


Apparently so. There are so many factors to consider - from water to schools - but vacc is an important one. There is no room for debate for some I'm afraid.


#62 Azadel

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:38 PM

QUOTE (fancie @ 11/12/2010, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Strangely no-one has said "Yeah go, don't vaccinate, have a great time, send me a postcard!"

Wonder why?!?!?!?!


Vaccination is just one of the considerations I would take into account if considering such a move, and just one of the things the op is considering.

I will try not to take my kids for long drives on country roads in Australia.

I would never allow them in a tuktuk in Bangkok traffic.

I would not forbid them from all cars in case they died in a car accident one day. It's about risk assessment.

#63 Soontobegran

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:42 PM

QUOTE (raven74 @ 10/12/2010, 08:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Vaccination is a hotbed here, OP.
For what it's worth we are non vaxers, however if I were moving to a third world country I would be vaxing ALL my children  - the risk in undeveloped countries is far to great.


Soooooo what would you do if every Australian parent were non vaxer's?


QUOTE (haras1972 @ 10/12/2010, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
thanks beebee09, I was wondering the same thing - Mads reaction to her first needles was awful - in terms of she screamed for hours, had a mild fever, very unsettled and wouldn't feed. But we just considered that par for the course and continued with scheduled vacx.

How severe a reaction are we talking, for those where it's enough to stop any more vacs?



QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/12/2010, 10:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The vaccination schedule in undeveloped countries is a lot less brutal than ours.  So you could consider vaccinating against just those things that are an issue in the country that you're going to.

You say less brutal, I say less efficient!


QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/12/2010, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry if my opinion bothers you.  It is an educated opinion, even if you don't agree with it.

I think that the majority of Australian parents who do vaccinate would argue that yours is perhaps not an educated opinion.



#64 got my tinsel on

Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:59 PM

QUOTE (Azadel @ 11/12/2010, 12:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Vaccination is just one of the considerations I would take into account if considering such a move, and just one of the things the op is considering.

I will try not to take my kids for long drives on country roads in Australia.

I would never allow them in a tuktuk in Bangkok traffic.

I would not forbid them from all cars in case they died in a car accident one day. It's about risk assessment.

But the OP is not considering the move.  It sounds like that is going ahead!

She is however, considering still not vaccinating even though she will be moving to a 3rd world country.

#65 TheAppetiser

Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:08 AM

I'm immune to TB. I've never been vaccinated against it. I gained immunity by being exposed to it growing up in Africa. I was lucky - most there aren't.  Exposure to serious disease is a very real risk in a third world country. I'd weigh up very carefully the perceived vax risks against the very real risk of disease. Good luck with your decision.

#66 RichardParker

Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:15 AM

QUOTE (Azadel @ 11/12/2010, 12:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wouldn't survey them.

I'd be exploring every avenue to get them safe access to clean drinking water.

And, presuming you could do that, as well as clean up the open sewers in the streets, provide running, treated water for cleaning and cooking, kill all the mozzies, contain roaming animals, and make sure everyone was well-fed, you would still have to do something about those disease-causing viruses.  Developed countries had all of these conditions 50 years ago, but still had kids dying from polio, etc.

Edited by Greenbag, 11 December 2010 - 12:16 AM.


#67 purplekitty

Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:31 AM

QUOTE (Azadel @ 10/12/2010, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wouldn't survey them.

I'd be exploring every avenue to get them safe access to clean drinking water.

These are the diseases considered of concern for travellers to Rwanda:
Hep A. Hep B, Typhoid, Polio, Yellow Fever, Rabies, Malaria, Measles, Dengue, Filariasis, Leishmaniasis,Onchocerciasis, African trypanosomiasis, Plague,tuberculosis, HIV, Marburg haemorrhagic fever, histoplasmosis,H5N1,and schistomiasis.
Only some of these can be vaccinated against but your suggestion of clean drinking  water as the solution is simplistic.

Rwanda would be one of the high risk areas but I would think very hard before going to live in a third world country with children and never without vaccination and preventative medication if it was required.e.g for malaria.

QUOTE
I was attempting to challenge your repeated assertions with common sense

I don't see common sense , I see unsupported opinion presented as fact.



#68 mum850

Posted 11 December 2010 - 07:34 AM

I really don't know how anyone can say rotavirus vaccinations are unnecessary. Half million, half a million children DIE of rotavirus  a YEAR according to the WHO.

Rotavirus is usually an easily managed disease of childhood, but worldwide more than 500,000 children under five years of age still die from rotavirus infection each year[10] and almost two million more become severely ill.[8] In the United States, before initiation of the rotavirus vaccination programme, rotavirus caused about 2.7 million cases of severe gastroenteritis in children, almost 60,000 hospitalisations, and around 37 deaths each year.

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotavirus




#69 Guest_**KM**_*

Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE
And the answers from the non-vaxers so far have been:

a) yes to vaccination - though not necessarily all
b) don't go, therefore avoiding the greatly increased likelihood of disease and death due to non vaccination.

Strangely no-one has said "Yeah go, don't vaccinate, have a great time, send me a postcard!"

Wonder why?!?!?!?!


Yes that was my summary of all the posts as well.  I really don't understand the outrage at the OP asking for only opinions from non-vaxers especially given all non-vaxers in this thread have either said they wouldn't take their child or they WOULD vax (delayed or try and get separated vaccines etc).  

Not sure what the pro-vaxers think they are offering that we have not already offered in advice  huh.gif

I don't have an issue with the non-vaxers replying at all, but I just don't think it's justified for an outcry of not wanting the OP to hear from like minded people (obviously if the OP is asking whether she should vax then her mind is already in a place of considering it seriously anyway!).



#70 Magenta Ambrosia

Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:42 AM

I'm astounded at the hypocrisy in choosing not to vaccinate because you're protected by those that do. So it's OK for others to risk reactions from vax, but not your precious darlings? Polio is horrendous no matter what country you're in and cases are starting to reappear in Australia due to migrant populations and unvaccinated people.

Personally I wouldn't move if you have a legit reason to not vaccinate your children.

#71 protart roflcoptor

Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE (Natural_mum @ 10/12/2010, 11:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am neither pro or anti vac what I am is someone who believes that they have there place.  I don't vac for things that are not so common in the location I live in but if I was going somewhere that those diseases were very common then yes I would get it done.


Once again....as PPs have said....You are simply taking advantage of the parents who have vaccinated, thereby reducing or eradicating the disease in our society. Do you understand this at all? That is why the diseases are not common here, not because they are not serious and it's not necessary to vax against them.

No, you are not pro or anti vax, you are simply lazy.


#72 mum850

Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (loufinch @ 11/12/2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Once again....as PPs have said....You are simply taking advantage of the parents who have vaccinated, thereby reducing or eradicating the disease in our society. Do you understand this at all? That is why the diseases are not common here, not because they are not serious and it's not necessary to vax against them.


This.

#73 kay11

Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:24 AM

QUOTE (Freakypet @ 11/12/2010, 02:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Try to boost and maintain their natural immune systems (well, I assume you are anyway) in the meantime.


I live with the joys of a naturally 'boosted' immune system.  My hearing loss and other issues are part of this.  I still caught chicken pox though.

There is nothing that a healthy person can do to avoid catching some of these illnesses once hey are rife in the community if they're unvaccinated.   It's surprising to me that people feel 'educated' by reading a bunch of cherry-picked studies that have been found via anti-vaccination sites.

My immunologist also has a PhD in this subject and we are having to work through some of my issues from a first principles basis (how proteins are absorbed, how proteins cross the placenta and affect a developing baby and others) to work out whether I can breastfeed while on a relatively new biologic drug with my rare condition.

This is a fascinating process and there is no way someone who has absorbed a bunch of fear-mongering and misinformation from other anti-vaccinationists can go to this level and depth of understanding about human biology and how the immune system responds.

#74 Chelli

Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:28 AM

Thanks everyone,
I think we'll leave it here. I had to go offline and deal with a sick child, and have returned to see this decline into a slanging match despite being asked to stay on topic.




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