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IVF Multiple Cycles and The Longhaul Buddy Group #6

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#1 GeraniumQueen

Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:24 PM

New thread time, apologies I have no idea how I let it get that long!

link to last thread

#2 Sugar High

Posted 01 March 2011 - 09:42 PM

Yay new thread!!

Senecio, so extremely happy for you! I demand that you sprinkle BFP dust on us all original.gif

Carita and Panda, thank you for your thoughts. It's a new day and there is always hope

Spock, I'm doing most of the same things, just with diffracts meds.I've had all the tests and will just have to keep trying.
Kisses all round! Hope everyone is well

Edited by Sugar High, 02 March 2011 - 07:58 AM.

#3 Brookar

Posted 02 March 2011 - 08:18 AM

Morning ladies,

Well I POAS this morning 13dpo, 8dpt and it was a bfn. I'd just been feeling sick with nerves for days and I know the HPT are pretty accurate by this point. Devastated.  Up until I had a few cramps last night I was actually getting a little excited about this cycle.

So my question is what do I ask now?  I just don't think enough has been done to find the cause of our problem. It's been 3 years and 5 months since I went off the pill.  I'm "only" 30 and besides the sharp bend in my uterus which FS says could possibly make it hard for us to conceive naturally there is nothing "wrong" with me. DH's sperm is fine and every embryo we have had transferred has been described as a perfect five day blast.

Do I get a second opinion? I've been told that can be like starting again.  Is there any other testing I can have? I've already had a lap which identified mild endo which was removed, but FS does not think this is effecting my fertility. My tubes are clear etc. I just don't want to ask the question and FS say again that once the embryo goes in it's all about luck of the draw, surely our draw should have contained a bfp by now. I'm just so scared there is some underlying problem and if we carry on as we are we're never going to have success.

Sorry for the me post, I know some of you ladies have had many more cycles than I have, i'm just finding it hard to hold it together this morning sad.gif


#4 Guest_senecio_*

Posted 02 March 2011 - 09:15 AM

Brookar, I'm so sorry. hhugs.gif (I wish there was a non-smiling hugging emoticon. Sometimes smiles seem innappropriate).

Have you done BTs for recurrent implantation failure (same BTs as for recurrent MC testing)? When I asked my FS "What else can we do?" this is the only thing he suggested.

Have you tried acupuncture and low dose aspirin? The studies on both of these give conflicting evidence but there's no harm in trying.

Personally I wouldn't go getting a second opinion yet unless you really don't like or don't trust you FS for some reason. It's something I was starting to consider but changing clinics means more stress and who knows if it would be the right decision. And if I'd decided it was the wrong decision once I'd changed it would be awkward to change my mind and go back to my old FS! Anyway, I personally think it's premature to be thinking seriously about this. It could very easily still be just a matter of bad luck for you.

When I say my FS the other day he told me about an Israeli study which I think might offer some reassurance for long-haulers. Apparently, in Israel, they can do as many IVF cycles as they want on the national health system for free. And this study showed that when couples persist with IVF (because they're not limited financially), 90% will end up achieving a successful pregnancy. Most studies you read about are done in America and they only look at the stats up to about 6 cycles. The results of these studies are not very reassuring for those of us who've been doing it for a while. I've Googled the study but can't find it. I wish I'd asked him what journal it was in.

#5 librablonde

Posted 02 March 2011 - 09:23 AM

Brookar- I'm so sorry that you got that BFN, you must be feeling so low right now. Big, big hugs to you hhugs.gif

In regards as to what to do, I asked this very same question on EB a few weeks ago. I assume you've had all the BT's you can have, NKC testing, genetic testing, etc, etc, etc. I hammered my FS with a ton of questions last week b/c I didn't want to "just keep trying" and waste so much money and time if he couldn't find anything wrong with me (and he can't, I have unexplained infertility). After much debate with me, his answer was the same: I just have to keep plugging away and do more cycles to achieve a full-term pregnancy. I was not happy with that answer ddown.gif

So I went on CoEQ10 and DHEA in the vague hope it might do something, as well as my normal Blackmore's PreConception multi's. And am being super healthy with my diet right now.

Yes, you are so lucky that you're "only 30" and I totally regret not starting this process when I was that age (I started IVF  ICSI at 38). But I would get a second opinion with another FS, possibly start acupuncture and also perhaps a naturopath if you haven't done so already.

It's all so "iffy" isn't it??? I'm sorry I don't have more concrete ideas for you. Again, bigs hugs to you and be kind to yourself. xoxo

Edited by librablonde, 02 March 2011 - 09:34 AM.

#6 Feral-as-Meggs

Posted 02 March 2011 - 09:51 AM

Ah Brookar I'm so sorry.   There are a lot of tests you can do, and I think its worthwhile even to rule things out.  You could do a complete miscarriage screen (which can also apply to implantation failure).  A karytype of you and DP.   Hysteroscopy to have a look at the bend from the inside.   Endometrial biopsy (NK cells and/or chronic infection - which I had embarrassingly enough).

Also this is a bit way out there, but there are people who do uterine massage to try to align things a little better.  That might be worth a go.  

OK, no-one needs to google "Israel study IVF success" because you get......

"Israeli study links clowns and IVF success by reducing stress"


Maybe we could have a few of the clowns at the cafe.

#7 Guest_senecio_*

Posted 02 March 2011 - 09:53 AM

QUOTE (meggs1 @ 02/03/2011, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OK, no-one needs to google "Israel study IVF success" because you get......

"Israeli study links clowns and IVF success by reducing stress"


Maybe we could have a few of the clowns at the cafe.

biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif Yes, that's all I came up with too.

#8 Brookar

Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:02 AM

Senecio - Wow, thanks for the story regarding the study in Israel. That certainly does give me hope. I'd love to know more about their statistics as far as how long it took patients to achieve a successful pregnancy.

I haven't had blood tests for recurrent implantation failure but I will ask the question. I do like my FS and at this stage I think I will stay where I am.  The only thing that makes me think of getting a 2nd opinion is that my FS is also an obgyn and I thought of possibly going to someone who only specialises in infertility.  But the stress of changing is not worth it at this stage.

I am currently on low dose asprin, but I am going to research acupuncutre in my area.

Thanks again, I hope things are going well for you original.gif

LibraBlond - thank you. I have gone down the naturopath path but to tell you the truth my heart wasn't in it, so it may be worth re-considering.  I'm sorry your FS couldn't give you a better answer to your questions.  We push on I guess.

Can I ask you though how much Coeq10 you take?  Is the theory behind this that it helps egg health or is it said to be helpful when you are in a FET cycle as well?

Thanks for allowing me to get this all off my chest.  

Hi to everyone else original.gif

#9 Rosabella

Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:10 AM

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been around much lately. Don't have time for proper personals now (will come back later and catch up on everything) but I was wondering how everyone feels about getting another list happening now that we have a new thread. I don't mind doing it if everyone wants to PM me or just post your details.
I was thinking of breaking it down like this:

Currently on break.....



Then list whatever details everyone wants eg name, age, state, cycle type, drugs, due dates of grads

Might make it easier to keep track.

I can post the list here so it's on the front page and just update when needed.

#10 Tussycat

Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:19 AM

Brookar, I am so so sorry to hear this news.

The others have mentioned a few tests you could have - I had a series of BTs to rule out a range of things, including chromosome testing, karyotype, DH had a sperm DNA (see below) etc ?  This may sound a bit hard to swallow but my FS kept telling me we just needed a little bit of 'luck', kind of what Librablonde's said.  That sounds a little trite in alot of ways but I guess it was his way of saying keep trying, because all the indicators are there (ie good response, good embies) And he said this in spite of my age.  

FWIW, I had Blackmore's pre-conception, coq10 and acupuncture, you may have tried all or some of those.  I do not know much about it,  but is PGD an option ? Not sure if you've had it but worth asking your FS about.

In terms of a second opinion, I changed clinics, but I did so because the public clinic I was with couldn't provide the level of service I need at my age. For example, EPU theatre closed on weekends, one month I missed out on a stim cycle because they were 'overbooked' etc etc.    My new FS was quite open in saying while he looked at my files, he regarded as us starting from scratch.  Obviously he knew I over-responded to my FSH so lowered that immediately, and both he & I had the knowledge that the signs were encouraging.  He changed us to ICSI (previous clinic never mentioned it) and I think this may have helped us, as he saw a very slight issue with DH sperm that only showed up in a DNA analysis.

Saying "keep trying" is all very well, I know, the emotional and financial burden makes us all wonder whether it's worth it.  I hope you don't mind me being so open about this, but like librablonde, with the benefit of old age (picture granny in rocking chair here), my advice would be give it another stim cycle, but in the meantime do some research on another FS - and if the cycle doesn't work out, maybe re-evaluate clinic change.   I made a booking with the new FS a couple of months out, most good ones are booked well ahead as you know - but continued on with an FET with my old clinic.  When I got the BFN with old clinic, I had the first appointment with new FS the following week, which gave me something to 'look forward' to.  I am very impressed with my FS I have to say, I can't remember where you are, but if you do decide to change, I would definitely recommend him.
All the best Brookar xxxxx

Edited by moi mwah, 02 March 2011 - 10:24 AM.

#11 Chocciecake

Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:33 AM

Also what about pgd? This worked for us & finally gave us some answers on why all the embryo transfers were doing nothing or chemical pregnancies. Although it's a huge amount upfront per cycle (extra $4000 per cycle!) it meant so many less transfers (and hence about same cost overall) plus sooooommuch less heartbreak. Would highly recommend it. Cgh is newer form of pgd and better but only 2 places in aust. Doing it at present. Good luck all & keep trying!

#12 Spock

Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:53 AM

hi ladies,

brookar, so sorry.....such sad news to hear. Sending you lots of comforting hugs.

I switched fs's last year, not because i disliked my original fs - I actually really liked him, but more because we did lots of tests and he couldn't find anything to treat so he wasn't willing to change our protocol. After 3 m/c's in a row i simply didn't want to keep doing the same old thing. Nothing wrong with dh's sperm and all our 5 day embies were at least good quality.

My new fs works under the same clinic but a different location and has been a lot more proactive. He is actively treating me for recurrent m/c even if its is not completely 100% proven treatment and he convinced me to have a lap, hys and biopsy at the same time. My previous fs didn't think I needed these investigations. Nothing was found from these investigative surgeries EXCEPT elevated NK cells were picked up from the biopsy. My fs is a world renowned expert in NK cells research (I have a few medical contacts that I put out feelers for in searching for a new fs) and he explained to me that very often the bt for NK cells comes back normal because the blood isn't being specifically taken from your uterus whereas, the biopsy is, so the biopsy is more reliable. I also had more 'rare' tests like amh (suggested by my new fs and I had never heard of this test before). So basically i am no longer 'unexplained', I have low amh which may or may not mean poor egg quality but definately means very low egg numbers and this can lead to recurrent m/c, I also have elevated NK cells. It was scary finding out about all these and I do feel very sorry for myself but at least I am now being treated very specifically.

There are other 'rare' tests but your fs should be able to tell you what these are and what they are for and what signs would mean you should get tested. If you're seeing a good fs they should be suggesting to you what tests you should consider seeing that is their job. At the very least, low dose aspirin and progesterone support have been around since the 70s without adverse consequences.

I think if you want to change in your protocol, you should tell your fs so and if he/she won't agree, I would look at finding another fs. At least just for a consultaation to see what the new view would be. I told my original fs that I simply couldn't go through another m/c doing the same thing again, and I needed another point of view before launching into another cycle. I'm really glad I made that decision even if I am in limbo right now. If possible, you might be able to find another fs at your same clinic. This made my life easier as I'm still dealing with the same support staff etc.

Sorry for such a long post but I just wanted to share with you what happened with me in case this helps you.

rose, nice to hear from you. does this mean you will startin a cycle soon? Can you create another category called 'in limbo' for me because I don't feel like a graduate. I don't think I will feel safe for months to come.

sugar high, glad to see you are strong and looking forward. Goodluck.

senecio, the clowns thing reminds me of that Robin Williams movie Patch Adams I think. I smiled reading this, i wonder how they managed to get funding for the clowns. I wonder what gags, jokes they used.

#13 Rosabella

Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:06 AM

Hey Spock, I can definitely add in limbo to the list. I'm sure most of us would feel like that to begin with. And yes we have just booked on for a FET. I havent been posting because the councilor suggested switching off all things IVF while not cycling. It helped a bit but I really love the support everyone gives in here so I thought I would get back in it and offer some support to everyone else too. As for your state of limbo - what's next for you testing wise? Do you have another ultrasound booked?

#14 librablonde

Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:32 AM

Hi Brookar- I take 160mg per day of Coq10 (there'a already 60mg in Blackmore's PreCon, and then I take 100mg of it in 1 tablet per day. I'm also taking 100mg for DHEA per day. I have no idea if they'll do anything at all, maybe just a placebo effect??? I just feel like I have to do something to feel more empowered while I'm in such a powerless position.

According to Dr Google, Coq10 is sometimes found to be low in women who have experienced m/c. It also allegedly improves egg quality and protects the egg from free radicals, so is suggested to be taken 2-3 months before an EPU.

So last time I had my EPU they got 9 eggs and 4 fertilized with ICSI. I'm hoping that maybe if I get 9 eggs in my next EPU that maybe more than 4 will fertilize and grow due to the Coq10. I can only hope happy.gif

ETA: sorry, it's Blackmore's Conceive Well Gold, not PreConception. I've been taking them for more than a year and I've been calling it the wrong name!! D'oh! ddoh.gif

Edited by librablonde, 02 March 2011 - 09:13 PM.

#15 librablonde

Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:10 PM

Hi again ladies, this is a bit off topic, but Meggs1 inspired me to google Self Fertility Massage. Here's a link, maybe it can help??

Self Fertility Massage dvd advert and You Tube sneak peak:

Has anyone done this and did it help?

#16 Brookar

Posted 02 March 2011 - 03:54 PM

Thank you all so much for your support today and for your detailed information.  I am now armed with a list of questions to ask FS, and am thinking I may try them out on the nurse first when I go for my BT on Friday which they normally like you to still go ahead with.

Thank you so much again, for making me feel more encouraged, less defeated and most importantly like someone understands. xxx

Edited by Brookar, 02 March 2011 - 03:55 PM.

#17 Rosabella

Posted 03 March 2011 - 07:06 AM

Ok finally some time to do some replies (only from this thread so far).

Brookar - I'm so sorry about your BFP. I'm 'only' 30 too and have also been told my embryo's are perfect. Last year after a long break we had to have a new FS due to the old one leaving the clinic. It was the best thing that could happen to us. While we haven't got our BFP yet, my new FS found elevated NK Cells and is so supportive of trying anything that we want. I think everyone has given some good advice on what to ask for. My only advice is if you feel there is something more keep pushing for an answer.

- no clowns in the cafe, yuck they creep me out lol

Hi to everyone else, I will attempt to catch up on the other thread tonight and post some more.

Take Care xoxo

#18 carita

Posted 05 March 2011 - 07:07 PM

Brookar-Thinking of you...

mel-Saw your post in the venting section. Oh my! I have to admit, I had a giggle, but seriously those bastards!!

Hi to everyone, hope you're all well and having a nice weekend.

I'm having my FET on Friday. Wouldn't you know it, that's the day of my class' first assembly at school this year. Oh well, it's not like I can choose the time and day really. Fingers and toes crossed the embie thaws ok this time. We haven't had the best of luck with FETs before...what am I talking about...we haven't had any luck with anything!! haha...

#19 carita

Posted 05 March 2011 - 07:10 PM

And oh yeah...back on the pessaries. Fun times!

#20 librablonde

Posted 06 March 2011 - 08:27 AM

Hi ladies,

it seems there's been a mass exodus from this forum with all the BFP's graduating (a big congrat's to you lovely ladies), so I hope we get another wave of graduates in the next few months from all of us remaining.

Carita- good luck on Friday with the FET.  What pessaries are you on? Is it  Crinone? Those damn things make me feel so depressed!!

AFM- I'm just focused on losing the maximum amount of weight that I can before my next EPU in April, am taking all my supplements, being super healthy. I start accupuncture next week, which I've never done before so I hope I don't squeal too much with those needles! I have an unfortunate needle phobia, despite all the IVF experience.

To Rosabella, MM, Spock, Mel and everyone else- I hope you're having a lovely, relaxing Sunday original.gif

#21 Rosabella

Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:46 AM

librablonde - Thanks for the link re fertility massage. I have never heard of it so never tried it. I would be interested to hear from anyone that had too. This thread has gone a little quite with the BFPs, it would be nice if there was no need for this group anymore. Don't stress too much about the acupuncture, you will be laying down and won't see the needles and they don't feel the same as a blood test or giving drugs. All the best with the weight loss, I'm trying to do the same while in this cycle and it is hard but slowly the weight is coming off. Lots of protein works for me.

carita - yuck pessaries! I don't have to have them with my FET, not sure if that's good or bad. All the best for Friday, sending you some sticky vibes.

Hi to everyone else

AFM - I am going for my first BT tomorrow for my FET. We will be transferring 2 again this time (fingers crossed we have more success with thawing this time around). I am just working on trying to lose some weight and not put on this cycle. I am convinced this will be a factor in getting a BFP. I feel like I am rattling when I walk with all the drugs and vitamins but hey we do what we have to. I kind of feel like I'm just going through the motions this time around, have no confidence at all.

#22 Spock

Posted 06 March 2011 - 01:51 PM

****warning loss mentioned***
i started bleeding this morning. no cramps or anything. went for a scan for reassurance and found out my baby's heart has stopped beating. I have now lost baby number 4 in a row. I really hate body. why does this keep happening? will i never have a healthy child? how much heartache must we go through. what the hell is going on. i'm so upset. dh is devastated too. i don't know if i have much more strength. i can't even cry i'm in too much pain.

#23 cheshire_cat

Posted 06 March 2011 - 02:00 PM

Spocky I replied in your other post, but again, just wanted to say I am so very sorry. I can't even imagine the pain. Take care of yourself.
hugs xx

#24 Rosabella

Posted 06 March 2011 - 02:03 PM

Oh Spock, I am in tears reading your post. I am just devastated for you. I wish there was something I could say but I know there is nothing. Take care of yourself and DH. We are all here for any venting you need.

Edited to add - I wish that big hug didn't have such a smile on its face sad.gif

Edited by Rosabella, 14 March 2011 - 08:54 AM.

#25 librablonde

Posted 06 March 2011 - 02:05 PM

Oh FFS!!!! Spock, I'm so sorry for your loss, what a ghastly time for you. I know there's nothing I can say to ease your pain, I'm just so, so sorry that the world is so fu*king unfair!!!!!!!! What a nightmare for you, you're in my thoughts, hon hhugs.gif

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