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Non-vaccinated kids - how does it impact your life?


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#26 Artful

Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE (It's Me! @ 10/01/2012, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can someone please explain the pros/cons of delayed vaccinating or not vaccinating.

I'm asking as a genuine question - not to start a debate.

Please be factual in your comments rather than attacking one side or the other as I'd like to read some answers before the thread gets closed.

Many thanks.


Can I suggest you do some research on independent sites? You are not going to get any unbiased views here I suspect.

I live in Perth where there is currently a whooping cough outbreak or increase.  Back to the original subject, I know parentswho won't let their babies be around unvaccinated adults and children due to the risk.



#27 wattle-bird

Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:57 PM

OK this isn't about daycare but relates to later in life.

I work in an area of healthcare where we use strong immunosuppressing medications to control disease. If someone hasn't completed vaccinations (and they have to been shown to seroconvert on serological testing) then we will offer to delay therapy until vaccination is caught up or we will only offer "gentle" options ie. medications not strong enough to control the immune system. I won't offer treatment to non-vaccinated patients as the risks of severe, life-threatneing infection is too great.

I meet a fair number of teenagers whose parents chose for them not to be vaccinated and most of them choose get vaccinated as fast as they can so they can get the gold standard treatment. There is usually a delay of a few weeks though (to allow seroconversion) and that's frustrating and painful for the whole family. Fortunately its just painful though. I would assume the same situation would arise in leukaemia / lymphoma etc and with those diseases you don't have time to wait to get vaccinated first. Not sure what would happen in that circumstance but have to assume that patient wouldn't be offered stem cell transplant etc.

Granted, these are rare diseases (1% population) so unlikely to occur. But you asked for effects on life and even though there is little chance of this occuring, its a scenario I would see approx once a month.

#28 peppersmum

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:00 PM

QUOTE (Artful @ 10/01/2012, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can I suggest you do some research on independent sites? You are not going to get any unbiased views here I suspect.

I live in Perth where there is currently a whooping cough outbreak or increase.  Back to the original subject, I know parentswho won't let their babies be around unvaccinated adults and children due to the risk.


I don't want to take this OT but as a non-vaxer my decision was actually made mostly by reading two great books by doctors who are pro-vax but present just the facts without bias both ways so parents can make informed decisions. My social circle is mostly non-vaxers or people who respect my DH and I have made an informed choice BUT please remember not all non-vaxers choose it, some children CAN'T be vaxed for medical reasons so these children should not be socially excluded from family/friends. There are many people who would be carrying disease like WC that you would not even think of (they say adults who haven't had boosters are the biggest issue now) ... But I guess it's easier to blame the small percentage of non-vaxers rather than the rest of the adult population that are ignorant to the fact that they are also spreading the disease.


#29 Cat©

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:00 PM

We have never had an issue with non-vaxing. Once a FDC didnt want to take us due to an amaphylaxis allergy, but I was glad she had admitted she was terrified, so we found someone else original.gif

Never at school or daycares. A few nurses have got thier knickers in a twist and one paed did, but thats all pretty much. They cant seem to understand that when you have had to revive your own child after a vax reaction that you are just far too terrified to go there again!

We have had two out of the three with vax suffer severe reactions so wont put the other two through it "just to see if they react the same", as the paed suggested..

#30 Iliketoflounce

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:01 PM

Yes the immunisations are good to a point but u can still get the illness I have had the whooping cough needle 3times and still got whooping cough it is up to.the parents and everyones body is different with the immunisations

#31 Artful

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:02 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/01/2012, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are many thousands of unvaccinated adults the child potentially comes into contact with every time you take them in public.  


Whooping Cough is BEST spread by vaccinated, immune children who have been proven by clinical research to silently carry and pass on the illness.  They are never excluded from care because they don't show signs of illness.  So they carry on, passing on the illness for several weeks without the dose of antibiotics that known carriers get that stop them passing it on for any longer.   An unvaccinated child with the illness would have been home well before this, antibiotics given, germs contained and exposed kids hopefully in isolation.


So explain again how informed knowledge leads people to assess the risk?  Because it sounds like a crock of uninformed rubbish when carers get to decide who is in their care based mostly on what they don't actually know.


I completely disagree with your second paragraph but, once again, this is not meant to be a debate but information about possible results for the OP. .

#32 JAPNII

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:05 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/01/2012, 10:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So explain again how informed knowledge leads people to assess the risk?  Because it sounds like a crock of uninformed rubbish when carers get to decide who is in their care based mostly on what they don't actually know.

Carers including FDCs get to assess risk based on the medical advice available from all government departments - hardly a load of uninformed rubbish. As mentioned, its likely the carer is well within her legal rights to choose whom she has in her home.

#33 JAPNII

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:09 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/01/2012, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Xactly!   The couple of non-vaccinated kids at your daycare are not the ones to be concerned about when the majority of the adult population are unvaccinated against WC.  If you are going to weigh up risk and numbers of unvaccinated people, just don't go shopping or to any public place.

Kids are more likely to cough without covering their mouths or sneeze without covering their nose than adults.

This is why WC is so effectively spread at day care centres and schools.


#34 seepi

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:10 PM

An alternative school in Canberra has recently suffered a measles outbreak. All non-vaccinated kids were excluded for quite some time.
(Measles can take up to 21 days to show up, so the exclusion period would presumably be more than 3 weeks from the last measles case.)

So these kids would have been excluded from school for a month or so (except i think Xmas came first). which would be awkward if you were in yr 10 or 12, or even year 6.

#35 Chelli

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:20 PM

There has been a thread started in WDYT about excluding non vaccinated children in FDC. Please take all further discussion about that to the other thread.

#36 peppersmum

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:21 PM

JAPN2 I wonder if it has anything to do with it being I the family home, it's not uncommon for FDCers to have their own children there too so not sure if that's something that makes it different. I have never used FDC but I know a friend of mine recently was asked to find new care for her DS as his needs were too high (he's fine physically but possibly AS and has challenging behaviour). Not sure a child care centre would be able to exclude kids so easily?

Oops sorry chelli, should have taken that to the other thread  cool.gif  just don't like the general section and vax discussions  blush.gif

Edited by peppersmum, 10 January 2012 - 10:24 PM.


#37 red door

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:24 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/01/2012, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And the risk of this happening is fully accepted by the parents who choose not to vaccinate.  Many would actually assess the risk of having a measles vaccination as greater than missing 3 - 4 weeks of school.  We as parents of our own children but not theirs don't get to make that decision for them.


yes. I think this highlights the very different way that many vaxers and non vaxers approach illness and its "impact". They aren't approaching the concept from the same vantage point so its like comparing apples and oranges.

i would also say said "alternative" school (and I know which one) are very flexible with students in such circumstances as they share similar ideas about illness and vaccines.

OP- no, no one I know who has unvaccinated children (and that is probably 50/50 of all people I know), have ever had any problems with any area.

#38 MegsW

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:36 PM

I am sure that someone on here will know the answer, but one place that it could be an issue is that later in life, but when I was at uni studying in the health field, the uni wouldn't even put us in the system for placement unless we were fully vaccinated.

Not sure what happens if someone is a CO for that?

I am sure someone would know if this would cause an issue, or I guess when people graduate and try to get a job in a hospital, wether they can work as a nurse/mid without being vacc?



#39 ubermum

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:38 PM

QUOTE (wattle-bird @ 10/01/2012, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Granted, these are rare diseases (1% population) so unlikely to occur. But you asked for effects on life and even though there is little chance of this occuring, its a scenario I would see approx once a month.


Wow! If your post wasn't so big I would post it all. Given the stats you offer, it seems that someone is much more likely to be affected by not being vaxxed if they fall ill in a way that you would be part of their treatment team than the risk of a serious adverse reaction to the vaxx (which is less than 1%). That's food for thought.

#40 red door

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:46 PM

QUOTE (MegsW @ 10/01/2012, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am sure that someone on here will know the answer, but one place that it could be an issue is that later in life, but when I was at uni studying in the health field, the uni wouldn't even put us in the system for placement unless we were fully vaccinated.

Not sure what happens if someone is a CO for that?

I am sure someone would know if this would cause an issue, or I guess when people graduate and try to get a job in a hospital, wether they can work as a nurse/mid without being vacc?


yes, I know of a few people whom whom this has become something they have to really think about- often they have chosen not to vax their kids but are working within the field. Most all seem to conclude that they feel confident that their healthy adult system can better handle the toxicity of vaccines in a way they don't feel, or aren't prepared to risk, their young child being able to.

in short- they have grown, their children are still growing/ forming.

there was a case of a young medical student at Newcastle Uni suing the uni for discrimination for not allowing her conscientious objection position to stand. She had come from a family of non vaxers, had never been vaxed ect. Not sure of the outcome. I think that could get grey, as many people could argue they are being discriminated against due to their religion, as there are quite a few religions that do not agree/ adhere to scheduled vaccines.

Edited by red door, 10 January 2012 - 10:50 PM.


#41 JAPNII

Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:51 PM

QUOTE (MegsW @ 10/01/2012, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am sure that someone on here will know the answer, but one place that it could be an issue is that later in life, but when I was at uni studying in the health field, the uni wouldn't even put us in the system for placement unless we were fully vaccinated.

Not sure what happens if someone is a CO for that?

I am sure someone would know if this would cause an issue, or I guess when people graduate and try to get a job in a hospital, wether they can work as a nurse/mid without being vacc?

No once can force you to be vaccinated which is a different question. But it may well be perfectly legal for a workplace to deny you a job based on your vaccination status - if I am correct and its not illegal to discriminate in this way.


#42 KristyMum-

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:00 PM

To the OP, I'll check with my DH because his work requires him to have xyz immunsations.  I don't know that anyone has challenged that but I'll ask him.

QUOTE
It's really quite simple, it's my home, and my business, and my choice to protect my family and other clients
I'd agree to that (assuming compliance with any legislation).  It doesn't have to be a risk that you (the reader) agree exists and/or to what extent, because it's not you providing the service. Some parents who are pro-vac may also prefer to attend a daycare where they know (because of the decisions of the provider) that all children are vaccinated.

As to other 'for the future' possibilites
I have friends in both the vacc and non vacc camps.  Of those I do have a friend now wishing she had vacc her children.  I guess in that sense, OP, changing your mind could have some financial implications as the vacc that are offered in childhood (free, mostly) would then have to be paid for by the parent.  Also, there are windows for some vacc (which I can't remember the details of what it was but we were late for one due to child being ill, and were unable to then have it outside the 'window') etc  So maybe from a financial point of view - and not as the be all and end all but merely as one factor, that's another thing to think of, especially if there are several children involved.

I guess the other might be transmission of a disease (if caught by un-imm child) to an elderly/immuno-compromised/pregnant etc person.  Which I am not saying is a risk solely for non-imm children, but since exclusions are in place when an outbreak occurs, it is clearly a contemplated possibility.

Edited by KristyMum-, 10 January 2012 - 11:05 PM.


#43 red door

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:03 PM

QUOTE (JAPN2 @ 10/01/2012, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No once can force you to be vaccinated which is a different question. But it may well be perfectly legal for a workplace to deny you a job based on your vaccination status - if I am correct and its not illegal to discriminate in this way.


yes, and to finish most all health courses you have to do placement. THAT is what they can deny you to. You can complete the units in the degree, but without the placement, you don't receive your qual. so its pointless.

#44 Speckle Park

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:04 PM

NSW Health will refuse employment to applicants for clinical positions if they are not vaccinated against a small group of diseases. This applies to external applicants as well as internal job changes. CO is not accepted.

#45 KristyMum-

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:05 PM

there you go.  So it can affect job prospects to a degree later in life.

#46 Chelli

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:07 PM

Do the armed forces require vaccination due to the places they travel to?

#47 purplekitty

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:22 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/01/2012, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am sure the NSW universities would be able to offer their students placements in non-government institutions.  How do they handle people who have been recommended not to have vaccinations by their Dr?  Who don't have written proof of vaccination status?  I do not believe that health professionals can readily work in institutions but not be placed as students in the same institution with a black and white rule regarding this.  Because it goes against medical ethics to mandate vaccinations for anyone.

My daughter has had placements in both of her degrees and has had to prove vaccination status for both. For her post-grad she had to produce this before she started the course. I imagine you have to revaccinate if you don't have the records or blood results.

Placement positions are not that plentiful. Non-government institutions may feel the same about requiring vaccination.




#48 Velouria

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:24 PM

Didn't appreciate a pp suggesting that child care centres would like us all to 'think' everyone is vaccinated when they in fact may not be. Still looking for the last word on proven research to support non vaxers claims...

#49 KristyMum-

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:24 PM

QUOTE
I am sure
(post #73) proof, fertile woman?
Since everyone else is on about it.

#50 *cough*

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:27 PM

QUOTE (Chelli @ 10/01/2012, 09:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do the armed forces require vaccination due to the places they travel to?


I'm pretty sure. They were also very iffy about accepting me because I'm allergic to amoxicilin and it is one of the general go to antibiotics.





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