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Non-vaccinated kids - how does it impact your life?

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#51 Speckle Park

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 11/01/2012, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am sure the NSW universities would be able to offer their students placements in non-government institutions.  How do they handle people who have been recommended not to have vaccinations by their Dr?  Who don't have written proof of vaccination status?  I do not believe that health professionals can readily work in institutions but not be placed as students in the same institution with a black and white rule regarding this.  Because it goes against medical ethics to mandate vaccinations for anyone.

I'm not sure about your 1st question about applicants for whom immunisation is contraindicated medically. Blood tests are requested for applicants (not just students but qualified health professionals) if proof of immunisation cannot be provided. This is mostly used for illnesses such as measles and varicella which the person may have had as a child.

Pertussis (whooping cough) is given with tetanus and diphtheria. This is a 10 year booster so most people would have access to these recent records or another booster would be given.

This is not the only industry that mandates immunisation. For example, most if not all abattoirs in Australia require proof of immunity (serum and skin prick) to Q Fever or immunisation as part of the pre-employment medical process. No immunity, no job.

Please, no off topic comments about the validity or appeal of a job in the meatworks. It is an occupation that  pays the bills of many families around Australia and should be respected.

#52 MegsW

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:38 PM

Most older adults don't have written proof of their vaccination status anyway. We rely on our parents telling us that we were vaccinated as well as memories of our 4 year old and high school vaccinations if we can remember that far!

If we didn't have written proof of vaccinations we had to either have a blood test to get the levels of immunity in our blood checked, or just have adult boosters.  I ended up just having them again as it isn't an issue for me as we are a vax family

It was even before we got into the placements this was done.  The placement office wouldn't even enter you into the system to get your choice of hospitals before you had lodged your forms with them.  I am unsure of wether a CO form could be lodged with the uni and you still be offered placement or not as I didn't know anyone that was a CO.

I know people in private hospitals that as part of their contract of employment that it is stipulated that they are fully vaccinated including flu shots each year given by the hospital.

I am unsure too of the defence force.  DH is in the reserves and my younger brother is in full service and both of them got all their boosters at their initial training course as part of the first few days (well they started them anyway).  I dont' know if there were any CO's on the course so unsure of the policy.

Like I said, isn't an issue for me but just tried to raise various possibilities to the OP for her friend!

#53 jill1972

Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:51 PM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/01/2012, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I actually understand that because the risk is enormous, and anaphylaxis by definition is life threatening.   In terms of risk it's not actually remotely close to having a non or selectively vaccinated child in care.  As unfortunate as it is for that poor child.

I don't agree with you at all on this one.  As per title, it's impacted my life this way.....

After years of trying to conceive, I finally fell pg with twins, I'd only just found out (about 7ish wks) when I got a call from my good friend who told me that her son had chicken pox.  My dd was playing with her son when he was contagious with chicken pox.  He wasn't vaccinated. This in itself  presented a very real & scary danger to my unborn twins life.  I could have lost  them if I'd contracted the virus.  I was so upset as I didn't know he wasn't vaccinated, there was no choice for me at all.  If it was an vaccinated child, I would have at least known that there wasn't anything I could have done about it.  But not being informed left me awake for a couple of weeks wondering whether or not I was going to keep my babies.

#54 purplekitty

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:01 AM

And I don't believe that any hospital, government or private will force an employee to be vaccinated in order to keep their job.

You can't get the job  if you don't have the qualification required.

If you are unable to finish your degree because you can't go on placement or can't enter the course in the first place, you'll never even see HR.

#55 jill1972

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:05 AM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 10/01/2012, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Had you not had chicken pox as a child?

Yes I did, that didn't mean I couldn't get it again!!  I was worried sick.  I not only had the chance of contracting it because of my direct contact with this child, but also my dd's contact.

#56 jill1972

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:15 AM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 11/01/2012, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
CP is able to be tested by titre,  You could have had a blood test to test your level of immunity so I'm sorry that you went through that worry.

What good would a blood test have done for me at that stage????

#57 purplekitty

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:24 AM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 11/01/2012, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Purplekitty please share with us your knowledge of mandatory vaccination for health care students with CO or noncompliance resulting in failure of the course.

I'm not the only one in this thread who has stated these requirements.  I have told you what my experience is just as you have told yours. My daughter has been at two different Unis.,in two different states doing two different degrees. This has been in the last 5 yrs.

You are postulating that a CO may be possible or a placement may be possible outside the normal placement system. Is it?

#58 KristyMum-

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:37 AM

Had you not had chicken pox as a child?
here, no (despite my Mum's best efforts at the time and with the knowledge that was available then).  so the risk applies (and similar situation for me a while ago) as per PP.  I had the two cpox imm as soon as I could after I was aware it was available and that particular child was born.  My sons also were immunised and both ended up with Cpox, but in that case there would have been nothing I could do about that as PP also said.

Sorry, but no matter the results of the BT after the contact, I wouldn't have stopped worrying.

#59 purplekitty

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:43 AM

QUOTE (fertile woman @ 11/01/2012, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To my knowledge, no health care organisation can force someone into a treatment they refuse.  And there are people who cannot be vaccinated.  So I find it very difficult to believe that there isn't an exemption.   If they can't mandate vaccinations for existing health care workers then I find it difficult to believe that they can for people entering the system.   If a student follows what they are told to do and doesn't challenge it (most wouldn't find a reason to) then they probably wouldn't know.  Just like the Government doesn't advertise CO status to parents and they have to challenge the norm to find out the details, It could well be the same for health care students.

Unfortunately, that is quite possible. I'll say no more on that subject because I've managed not to be deleted in here so far.
Might be the first time.  original.gif

#60 MegsW

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:47 AM

And I don't believe that any hospital, government or private will force an employee to be vaccinated in order to keep their job.

No but they can not have their contract renewed.  It isn't only on infectious wards that nursing staff can get sick from, or unknowingly pass on an infectious disease before it is evident!!  

And if you cannot do placements then you can't complete a nursing or mid course - simple as that.  They may not be able to force you to have vaccinations if you don't want it but they can not put you onto a placement!

#61 MegsW

Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:56 AM

Uni SA Clinical Placement Unit Handbook

Prior to commencing professional placements, students are advised:

To consult their general practitioner, the Travellers Medical & Vaccination Centre (a 10% discount is available to students who present a UniSA Student ID Card) or local government immunisation service to be screened and immunised for the following infectious diseases as recommended by Immunisation Guidelines for Health Care Workers in South Australia 2010 (PDF, 105kb).
To check that all other standard childhood immunisations are up-to-date, as per the state in which the health care venue
ACT^        SA        NSW~        TAS#^        NT^        VIC        QLD        WA
While these immunisations are recommended, we do require proof of your current immunisation status, as venues may refuse placement *.

If you do not have records please complete a Statutory Declaration (information) listing the immunisations that you have received, this document needs to be witnessed by a Justice of the Peace, (this not the case in New South Wales, please refer to their website for further details).

Alternatively, you can visit a doctor and have blood tests to prove which diseases that you have immunity.

^ Table 2.3.6 is on page 105 of the document

~ Immunisation in NSW is mandatory and non compliance will result in your placement being cancelled.

* Note that immunisation is a mandatory requirement for many health care Placement Providers and non compliance may prevent your placement at these venues. If in doubt, please contact your Course Coordinator or the Clinical Placement Unit.

# Please contact the Clinical Placement Unit for further informati

So in NSW they can exclude you from placement.  Not 100% sure about other states though.

#62 MegsW

Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:04 AM

I just read the CDU Conscientious Objector form and whilst students can lodge it in the placement documents it states that

I understand that the health care facilities may refuse me access or clinical placement because of my
conscientious objection to health screening and/or immunisation requirements. I understand that if this
occurs my ability to successfully complete my course of study may be affected.

CDU Co form

So I guess it is a facility thing in some cases?

Anyway, I am stepping out now, really need to go to bed, but I just wanted to offer some other ideas - even if you don't think they are relevant FW!

#63 MegsW

Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:08 AM

I am not in here to fight either way for vax or not because for me it isn't an issue, like I said it is just a thought I had about repercussions later on like the OP asked.

And as I said it my last post, I guess it depends on the facility and what they think poses a risk.  And it is just a risk to the HCW themselves but to patients of the HCW.

I guess it would be great to have a CO that has been through it to come and clarify!

#64 MegsW

Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:55 AM

Okay it is really late at night/early morning but I did some more searching, because I am now intrigued to find out the answers LOL and the most I could find that in NSW there is a mandatory policy.

NSW Mandatory Vaccination Policy

I think from reading that students or new employees that object to vaccinations will be excluded, however for HCW that were employed when the legislation they would be managed according to risk of patients on ward nd their level of clinical role.  Table 3.7.1 seems to outline current employees and 2.2 seems to say that new recruits not be accepted for employment unless they have medical contraindications of they are vaccine non-responders (those who have vaccinated but still show a low level of immunity through serology).

I can't find anything to show any other states have this type of policy though, so I guess it is a hospital by hospital thing?

FW - I have not actually continued my midwifery due to other personal circumstances but do fully understand the concept of informed consent for patients and HCW.

ETA:  this is a mandatory directive for public facilities in NSW and a suggested directive to private facilities in NSW!

Edited by MegsW, 11 January 2012 - 01:57 AM.

#65 peppersmum

Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:55 AM

QUOTE (KristyMum- @ 11/01/2012, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
there you go.  So it can affect job prospects to a degree later in life.

Yes but that does not mean her children cannot choose later in life if they want certain vaccines to suit their 'lifestyle'.  Many non-vaxers I know are more concerned about the huge number of vaccines on the schedule for such tiny bodies immune systems to be able to cope with.  For me it is different to a choice as an adult to vax against something that has a high risk in a certain work field/country etc.  Many non-vaxers are not necessarily 'anti-vax' (I certainly am not - I actually advise vaccinations in my job), so it's not a matter of being 'gung ho' for life on never wanting vaccines for your children (whatever age they are).  It's a matter (for me) of raising them to educate themselves on what vaccines are necessary and which ones are not based on their own personal circumstances, lifestyle etc.

Fertile Woman  That's interesting about the uni/work stuff as until now I assumed that there were certain professions where you had no choice but to vax.  This thread has now got me thinking that maybe it's like the child care centre thing where the wording they use looks like you need to be vaxed but it's just a matter of going through the 'providing CO status' process.   Would be nice to know if someone has done this eg. in nursing/midwifery etc.

Edited by peppersmum, 11 January 2012 - 08:56 AM.

#66 Twinmum+2

Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:16 AM

DD1 is just starting her medical degree at Armidale this year.  She was told that her vaccinations must be up to date to do any clinical work.  As she was only partially vaccinated due to XH refusing to let her complete them, she has had to spend the last year catching up on all of them, including having to have the Hep B one four times before it actually worked sad.gif

As a PP said, if she wasn't vaccinated, she was not allowed in the hospital.  No clinical practice, no degree.

#67 seepi

Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:58 AM

Measles is also having an outbreak at the moment, as well as whooping cough.

I would be so stressed if my kids were not vaccinatedd. you should look up some pictures of measles on google - it petrifies me imagining my youngest looking like that.

I think the exclusion from school during outbreaks is a real concern. With mealse exclusion from the last case is 3.5 weeks, so a couple of cases a bit apart could lead toa  two month exclusion from school.

There is also exclusion from familiy events etc  - we had a 'mealses contact' with an infected kid at the doctors, and we all had to rush of an get extra/early MMr shots, but then also had to consider the vaccination status of everyone we were likely to see over Xmas.

We refused on play date as DD had mild cold symptoms (the stasrt of measles is like this). If we'd caught actual colds over Xmas we would have had to quarantine our family in case it was actually measles. Not fun over Xmas.

I would feel unblievably guilty if my family managed to give anyone elses newborn baby, or kids (or anyone) measles.

Anyway - luckily the 21 days has just passed for us and I think we can finally safely say that noone in our family is going to come down with measles - yay!

So all that is a long way of saying:
- exclusions from school and other events is one consequence of non-vax

- the worry of infecting others is another.

#68 PrincessPeach

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:14 AM

QUOTE (Chelli @ 10/01/2012, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do the armed forces require vaccination due to the places they travel to?

My dad is a retired serving member & during the 80's (his last deployment) they were just lined up & vaccinated with whatever they needed to be - no choice given.

It may be different now though.

However i thought the only vaccine that was basically mandatory was for Yellow Fever if you were travelling to one of those affected countries...sorry off-topic i know.

#69 Epitome

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (PrincessPeach @ 11/01/2012, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My dad is a retired serving member & during the 80's (his last deployment) they were just lined up & vaccinated with whatever they needed to be - no choice given.

It may be different now though.

However i thought the only vaccine that was basically mandatory was for Yellow Fever if you were travelling to one of those affected countries...sorry off-topic i know.

My husband enlisted in 2003 and left in 2009

He was jabbed for everything, every conceivable booster and vaccine (they also took his wosdome teeth out - even though the dentist said they would liekly never come through or cause issue)

I dont think conscientous objection and armed froces really go well together

#70 sueb31

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:38 AM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 11/01/2012, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Insisting that health care professionals are fully vaccinated should not be considered infringing on their personal rights; it is securing the rights of vulnerable, ill and elderly patients to be safe from these diseases while being cared for in hospital.

Exactly what I wanted to say but worded so much better!


#71 peppersmum

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE (rosiebird @ 11/01/2012, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Insisting that health care professionals are fully vaccinated should not be considered infringing on their personal rights; it is securing the rights of vulnerable, ill and elderly patients to be safe from these diseases while being cared for in hospital.

Oh I agree Rosiebird, I was just commenting on whether it's mandatory or not.  If I was working in nursing/medical field I would certainly want to be vaccinated against most diseases which I would have exposure to.

I know it seems though as non-vaxers are being selfish etc, but it's just not black and white for many of us.  A decision as an adult is very different to a decision for a child for myself and many others.

Anyway I will leave this alone now wink.gif

#72 TheGreenSheep

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:50 AM

QUOTE (Chelli @ 11/01/2012, 12:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do the armed forces require vaccination due to the places they travel to?

Yes. Also in relation to deployments, they can be vaxed for rare and unusual diseases we dont experience in Australia as a precaution.

Army medical Process

On the day of enlistment it is also important to bring with you any previous vaccination certificates
or other documentation relating to vaccinations that you may have received. Failure to provide
evidence of previous vaccinations may require you to undergo the full course of immunisation
again at the Training Unit.

Edited by TheGreenSheep, 11 January 2012 - 10:51 AM.

#73 ubermum

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:52 AM

Where I work the rules are no vax, no job. It was the same facility I did my first year placement in.

Health professionals can object as much as they like, but the fact is, apart from protecting our patients by vaccinating ourselves, our jobs also include advocating for health promoting activities. Vaccines have scientifically been proven to create better health outcomes for individuals as well as communities, so whatever someone's personal feeling on the issue, if they are a health professional, it is their job to promote vaccines.

#74 peppersmum

Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:54 AM

QUOTE (Lani ♥ @ 11/01/2012, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As others have said it can impact on school.  Missing 2 months in yr 11 or yr 12 would be a huge worry.

That can happen with anything, I know kids who have come down with Glandular Fever in Yr 11/12 and have missed heaps of school.  There's probably more chance of that happening then measles etc.  My older kids did not have their 4 yr old shots so would have had to be excluded for measles and they have done all primary school and my DD1 has done 2 years of high school with no exclusions for anything, so it really is rare.

#75 liveworkplay

Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:11 AM

Not all vaccinatable illnesses can have their titre proven via blood test (WC for one) So what then?

Yes you can, it is just not routinely used. Most diseases that you can get a blood test for to confirm diagnoses  can also be tested for seroconversion. Most viruses are tested for using ELIZA techniques or similar that all employ antibodies as part of their test method. If they can make the antibodies for these kits, then they can also test for them. That isn't to say that all testing is available for commercial use though, but the technology is there.

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