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Mostly BF newborn given formula top-ups and vomiting *update post 40*
What's happening here?


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#51 lucky 2

Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:28 AM

Hi there, thanks for the update, it seems you are finding your own way through your feeding challenges and I'm glad they are working for you at present.
In regards to having the tongue tie reviewed, I know of some resources if you are in Mebourne. Give me a pm if you are interested.
All the best.

#52 Sassenach2

Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:39 PM

I will probably be flamed for this, but then Dr Jack Newman is big enough to be flamed on t.v. the other day, so after being present and listening to his advice at the Breastfeeding Seminar in Canberra this week - here goes. OP, you are getting all the wrong information from people on this web-site and if you really want to have a breastfeeding journey, please go to Dr Jack's web-site and see what he advises. He sees thousands of breastfeeding mums around the world, has studied and researched breastfeeding and he knows more about this subject than anyone else on the planet.  cclap.gif Bottle feeding can set back your baby and even one bottle can hurt. You would be best to feed your baby EBM from a little open cup or the supplementary line system that a lactation consultant can help you with and see that you are doing it right. Babies need to suckle the breast and the more you put your baby to the breast, the more milk you will make and the baby will benefit from the suckling. Babies like to have "flow" and will pull off and squirm if they don't get instant gratification from the flow of the milk. Breast compressions will help with this and ask your lactation consultant about this procedure. Breastfeeding enhances jaw development in babies, as they suck on the nipple and areola area a different way to a bottle. Bottles will tend to NOT give the jaw development that babies need, as a lot of adults with malocclusion of the jaw, need dental work and wisdom teeth removed, more than exclusively breastfed babies and a lot of these adults were bottlefed. So in Jack's words: "Even one bottle can hurt", please try to have this rectified while your baby is a newborn.

#53 Lokum

Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:00 PM

Pookems - good on you. Sorry about the migraine, but glad your DP was there for support and to take the baby. It's amazing how even one nap can change the day.

I've got my fingers crossed for you for weight gain this week.

If he chucked after the bottle of EBM he might have got too much, or too much air, or he might jsut be like around 50% of little babies who chuck. The valve which keeps food down is pretty new and flimsy, and sometimes just doesn't work right from the start.

Does the little guy seem happier or more settled these last few days?

MollySheepdog - that's wonderful that you're so pro-BF and have the baby's long term interests at heart. It's great that you're studying and attending seminars and your theoretical knowledge is so superb. THIS mother and THIS baby can't continue to try BF at the breast all the time. The baby lost weight, the mother has nipples so flat that there's nothing for the baby to grab, and even with shields, his tongue-tie is inhibiting him from latching. Let's hope he outgrows some of this and gets strong enough to become a champion breast feeder. But to suggest she spend all day and night spooning or syringing full feeds of EBM, or put a hungry baby receiving inadequate calories into "breast-feed-or-bust" training shows you don't even have the breadth of life experience I do - and I'm no professional.

Plus, Pookems DOES have professionals advising her, and they've advised she needs to supp feed.


Edited by lucky 2, 10 March 2012 - 04:27 PM.
r/o content which relates to another thread


#54 IShallWearMidnight

Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:33 PM

it is exhausting!
i pumped and bf and topped up my FTT bub for the first year of her life.
lots of support is crucial.
best wishesl

#55 Sassenach2

Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:32 PM

This is exactly what Dr Jack said at the Seminar - Women are being failed by the system and getting the wrong information and I agree wholeheartedly. We have to change the system and let mums know that they CAN breastfeed with the right information from the start. Dr Jack doesn't believe in nipple shields and he says there is no such thing as a flat nipple - they can be brought out. If the baby has a tongue-tie, is it able to be fixed? I am not entering a b**ch session, but I am very upset that women are getting the wrong information and have been for four decades.

#56 JAPNII

Posted 10 March 2012 - 06:36 PM

Good on you OP.

I BF and FF (comp) fed my first and a little for my second.

My first was also a reflux baby which was undiagnosed for some time and would chuck everything.

I also struggled with supply and expressed as well to try and boost it.

FWIW my first is a very robust kid - not affected by the trials and tribulations of those early few weeks and months.

Edited by JAPN2, 10 March 2012 - 06:37 PM.


#57 Ella'n'alex

Posted 10 March 2012 - 06:48 PM

mollysheepdog, you know I love you (I actually do - i admire your conviction), but there's no one size fits all approach here. Especially with complicating factors like a tongue tie.

ETA Pookems, not sure if anyone's already suggested it, but I found when I went back to work and needed to express more that Fenugreek really helped.

Edited by Ella'n'alex, 10 March 2012 - 06:50 PM.


#58 Sassenach2

Posted 11 March 2012 - 08:21 AM

Thanks for loving me Ella"n" Alex, but after listening to Dr Jack, I have decided to get out there and try to give mums the information they need. I think this bubs has a frenulum problem which cannot be operated on, or I think that is what I read in the OP's post. So, what is wrong with trying the supply line to teach the baby to suck and eventually the flat nipple will be drawn out. The supply lines are used by Dr Jack for all his mums who come with problems, and the babies learn to suck and are getting milk through the line - very clever. So, please bear with me while I put on my Emmeline Pankhurst hat and try to give mums the information they need - bottles do destroy the breastfeeding journey. The sucking of the nipple will eventually make more milk and does it better than pumping does.

Thanks for loving me Ella"n" Alex, but after listening to Dr Jack, I have decided to get out there and try to give mums the information they need. I think this bubs has a frenulum problem which cannot be operated on, or I think that is what I read in the OP's post. So, what is wrong with trying the supply line to teach the baby to suck and eventually the flat nipple will be drawn out. The supply lines are used by Dr Jack for all his mums who come with problems, and the babies learn to suck and are getting milk through the line - very clever. So, please bear with me while I put on my Emmeline Pankhurst hat and try to give mums the information they need - bottles do destroy the breastfeeding journey. The sucking of the nipple will eventually make more milk and does it better than pumping does.

#59 ScarfaceClaw

Posted 11 March 2012 - 08:44 AM

Well done on all your hard work so far....
I had a difficult start to BF as well, my baby was small and sucking was a lot of work for him (so not that different to your little man) the difference being we used a NG tube for a few weeks as he was SO small.

Expressing is hard work, I exclusively expressed after/instead of each feed for the first 6 weeks, so I know how hard that is. I have recently gone back to work and have to say that rebuilding my ability to express took a lot of time before I was able to get enough off for a bottle. What sort of pump are you using? Could you consider hiring a hospital grade one for a few weeks to try and get more off? It doesn't work for everyone, but I know for me the better pump gets an awful lot more out.

We also use a shield, still at 9.5 months, and I don't believe that a shield impacts negatively on a BF relationship. I do however agree that you still will feel the suction, and see the nipple sucked down if he's doing it right, which it sounds like he's not doing that well at it.

I was determined to not have bottles in our lives, but it ended up being the difference for us between a NG tube or not, as they are quite simply easier for them to get the calories out of the milk.

For us, it eventually got easier, and he was EBF until start solids at 6 months, and now still 100% BM for day care days. So it can work.

Good luck, I think other people have given you some great advice, I just wanted to offer a little hope!


#60 bailee

Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:34 PM

Hi I'm late to this thread but wanted to let you know my experience with my DD. She was similar to your LO. She was loosing weight and I was feeding and topping up, seeing a LC, MCHN (breastfeeding supportive) and a paed who is an LC too. We ruled out all other medical probs for the weight loss (ie UTI, heart probs, etc - though she did have dairy intolerance) and so it was determined her suck was poor. I didnt get a firm diagnosis for it though but they said she was not able to transfer milk effectively and would tire very easily.

We were referred to a speech pathologist and she gave us some exercises to do encourage her to improve her suck- as well as poor breastfeeding she would choke on a slow flow teat as it was too fast for her, so bottle feeding was difficult too. In the end, I just expressed every feed and bottle fed her because the breast was just too hard for her. We were given a Special Needs Feeder (the Habermann) made by Medela, which has 3 flows on it and we used that to help exercise her suck.

It actually took 4 months of expressing and trying her on the breast frequently till I decided that I could not handle it anymore. I thought I would just feed her and then top up with formula (prescription) and not express anymore. To my surprise she had developed enough to be able to breastfeed. It was like all the hard work paid off and all of a sudden she could feed. We switched to breastfeeding from that day - a top up once or twice a day to start with, but then she weaned off that to full breastfeeding. She is still going now at 19 months and I never thought we would get there.

It was really hard work for me - a lot of expressing, a fair bit of stress and tears, but I really wanted to breastfeed DD as I had breastfed DS (who was prem) till he was 3, plus other reasons. Its not easy when you have problems, and your problems are of the more extreme type, so you have to have know that there will be ups and downs as you continue.

You have done an awesome job so far - hopefully you can find a solution to help you get through the hard times.

ETA: are you on motillium? Worth a try if you are essentially exclusively expressing. I wouldn't have been able to express without it.

Edited by bailee, 12 March 2012 - 01:37 PM.


#61 bailee

Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:48 PM

[quote name='mollysheepdog' date='11/03/2012, 09:21 AM' post='14389493']
- bottles do destroy the breastfeeding journey. The sucking of the nipple will eventually make more milk and does it better than pumping does.
[/quote
I just saw this - sorry but this is not always the case. If you read my post above where I have a bit more detail, bottles saved our breastfeeding. My daughter could not breastfeed, so it was already destroyed. A bottle is what got her fed for four months till she was strong enough to breastfeed. In the case of the OP's baby - bottles have not destroyed their breastfeeding either - her baby has a diagnosed problem and she is looking for solutions to help. I hate that blanket statement.

#62 Lokum

Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:07 PM

Even Dr Jack- 'blipping' - Newman wasn't saying bottles will destroy the BF relationship, as it turns out.

He was referring the first few days of a baby's life and getting going with BF.

Not to a baby a few weeks old who's lost weight and has a diagnosed challenge, AND whose mother nearly killed herself putting him to the breast for hours at a time to little avail.

I agree Bailee - bottles saved our BF r'ship as well. And your story is amazing! Good on you and your little one.

#63 lucky 2

Posted 12 March 2012 - 03:30 PM

A general reminder:-

If you disagree with someone (forum member or other) please express your opinion without resorting to a personal attack.
I have removed one post.

Regards,

lucky 2
Moderator of this forum

#64 Guest_Hoggle_*

Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:30 PM

Has good old 'Dr Jack' ever breastfed a baby? No? Well I bet there's a few things all of us in here that actually HAVE experienced breastfeeding could teach HIM.

Sorry I am 100% for breastfeeding but it is not one size fits all. Every situation is different and there are SO many different factors and circumstances to consider in each person's situation.


Edited by Hoggle, 12 March 2012 - 11:32 PM.





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