[It'sallgood]

Hoping to get some information from those who know about how the HSC works and subject choices etc

Have a neice going into year 11 next year. apparently a bit of a bright kid. I do think this is true, she comes across as bright, certainly in terms of her ability to think and comment on issues, maturely and thoughtfully. She's not brilliant, but I'd say she is definitely much more intelligent then average.

I was talking to her parents other day and they say she is very interested in eventually doing Medicine, definitely something the the health fields.

Her subject choices seem odd to me, in terms of doing well in the HSC to be able to go to uni and do pretty full on academic courses.

What I'm a bit "suss" about are these things:

1. She has chosen to do the more basic maths over the more advanced maths as they have been told she's better getting top marks in the easier maths then lower marks in the advanced math areas and that it won't effect her entry into Medicine.

I know this is what I was advised at school in the 1980's and was bull crap! I will forever regret dropping advanced maths as I would and could have done a LOT better if I'd stayed in Maths 1 and not done Social Maths (even though I did get okay marks in lower maths)

2. She is not doing Biology, she is doing Chemistry (yes - agree definitely) but has been told Biology is a waste of time...she's chosen to do dance or one of the artistic subjects instead of biology. Where dance & such would ever get her as a senior subject choice is beyond me?!

I know what is taught in Biology might be different these days, but I know that much of the Biology I did in the senior years was useful for my Nursing Degree, good basics for Human species "working" knowledge. But perhaps if their Biology course is very focussed on plants / animals over "humans" - iykwim? - then yes, it could be not very useful.

She reckons she is serious about going down the Medicine path, so to me, best to learn as much as she can in the sciences, as she is more interested in direct entry medicine then doing a science degree or such first apparently.

I haven't said anything, except to question why she'd make these choices, becuase I know nothing much about how ratings and HSC work. I only have my own knowledge from many years ago, in Qld system, where the "harder" the subjects you did, as long as you aimed for Credits (5's) or above, you'd get a top TE score and the more "academic" subjects always held a lot more weight then the more artistic subjects.

But that may NOT be the case anymore and it may also be different in HSC??

Can anyone with knowledge explain a bit? I'd just hate for her to have been given incorrect advice and make the wrong choices and then to miss out on what she wants because of it.

Tamm

[Jemstar]

What state is she in, is she in Qld too? I don't know the Qld system, but that does sound odd to me. Usually students with aspirations to do medicine do something like this:

English or English Lit
Chemistry
Biology
The top stream of maths (or possibly even two maths)
Possibly (but not necessarily) physics

Those that don't do two maths and physics usually pick up something like geography or history.

Usually all courses that are Year 12 Stage 3 bound or the equivalent in the particular state.

I know there is a push to loosen up the requirements to enter medicine, but I don't think it's loosened up that much that the advice your neice has been given is sound. She would probably have to sit the UMAT too.

This post has been edited by Jemstar: 10/11/2012, 05:06 AM

[Amishtador]

Entry to undergrad medicine has changed a whole lot since the 1980s.

The majority of courses weight entry between UMAT score, an interview and academic grades (either HSC or equivalent or uni grades).

Going back fifteen years I was advised to do almost exactly what your niece is doing - I dropped physics and high level maths and instead picked up the most basic maths I could to ensure that my grades were high enough for entry (combined with UMAT and interview as above).

My subject choices (which also included a random gaggle of geography, once again to bump my grades up, and drama, because I was a show pony) made no difference to recieving first round entry to the two medical schools I applied for (in two different states, one known for being 'progressive' and the other, at that time, still running a more traditional course).

I had no issues with only having a basic maths background once I was enrolled as all the maths included in my course was contextual (epidemiology etc.) so probably more in line with the stuff I learnt at school than pure maths would have been anyway.

I wouldn't worry about it.

[GaugeousBosons]

Hi Tamm

You haven't mentioned whether your niece has received career counselling? Is she in the state or independent system? What do her parents think? Which state are we talking about here?

In the victorian independent system the weighting of subjects is something that is done over a long period of time (beginning in Year 10, but discussed in Year 9 and earlier).

Quite often, if the subject choices are heavy on workload, one float subject will be suggested to break the pressure of the other subjects. But it's usually in a related field (for instance, someone wanting to do aeronautical engineering might pick a Design and Technology subject as the float). Dance doesn't sound right to me. Unless she's gone through the grading with Ballet or something and is advanced, but even then it's not quite right.

If you want, I can look into it on Monday - but the info I get will be specific to Victoria, which mightn't help you at all.

[livvie7586]

I know someone who is doing medicine post grad and didn't do maths or any sciences (not that i would want her anywhere near me, she didn't do them because she couldn't)

I'm with Amishtador, in NSW 8 odd years ago it seemed to go more on scores with a combination of subjects (i know for a science degree i had to have done maths of some description, at least 1 science, but more science was a bonus). if you showed that you could do maths and science, with umat scores and a great UAI then you could get in.

Not that i wouldn't be encouraging a higher maths and bio (especially Bio, if that doesn't really interest you then i don't know why a health science would in most cases). Dance got the girls i know into being a dance teacher, or dancing on cruise ships

[MsNorbury]

I'm a secondary teacher in QLD, and although technically it is possible to still do medicine following this path. I am surprised it has been recommended to her.

Ill start with maths, If you can't do the advanced maths and do well I dont think you will be able to do medicine. In terms of an entry score I am pretty sure here in QLD a B in the higher level maths would be better than an A n the lower level. I imagine its similar in NSW (I did my HSC there, but it was 20 years ago)

Biology you think she would do as she is interested, but I agree it is not essential. Chemistry I think is and I would suggest anyone who is interested in doing anything science based at University to do Physics and Chemistry and possibly Biology. This is not to do with entry grades, but to do with having an assumed knowledge.

Dance I would only do as a last subject after I had sorted everything else, in my experience it will not do a great deal to help her University entry. It can be good to have a range of subjects though just to keep sane.

I wouldn't push it too much (depends on how close you are), but maybe suggest she talks to someone at one of the universities, or a medicine student a few years older. Or she should see her school about work experience.

As a teacher I get frustrated with this kind of scenario, the only one more annoying is the student who wants to do engineering, but also wants to swap out of chemistry or physics as its too hard.

[Twolittleducks]

If she misses out in direct entry medicine, she may choose to pursue graduate entry medicine, following an undergraduate degree of her choice, it can be any degree.

But she will need to score highly on the GAMSAT. To do this she will need year 12 level physics and first year university level biology and chemistry. She will need to be proficient in Maths as well and have a good grasp of humanities. They don't care how you gain this knowledge and it can be self taught, but I would think it would be am lot easier to just do this at school.

If she plans direct entry medicine, I believe she will need to sit the UMAT and a very Hugh leaving score, at University of Qld an OP of at least 1 or 2 is required.

The following forum will be useful for her pagingdr.net.

Basic Maths (or. Maths A in Qld) will limit her.

Best wishesi

[mindy05]

Has she done Bio at year 11? My DD has just finished it and the workload has been a killer. However, for someone wanting to do medicine, I would have thought she would include at least 2 science subjects.

[purplekitty]

You don't need prerequisites as such for Med. but to do a general maths subject is foolish.They can even do an arts course as your direct entry undergrad. degree for UQ but that makes it even harder when they start med.
I'd stick to science subjects but not necessarily Biology(it also has a very high assignment workload).You can pick it up later.
If she can do dance as her last subject for relaxation,that might be good.

UQ actually gives you extra entry points for doing a language or Maths C.

A a PP said you need a good science background to do well in GAMSAT and some Unis,such as Melb.,require core biomed. subjects in your undergrad. degree where it is good to have a solid background.

[mumto4boys]

OP - you aged yourself when you mentioned TE scores

I have a child in Year 11 and 3 at uni, so all fairly recent school leavers in Qld, completing Year 11 and 12 under the OP system.

It is hard to make a blanket statement but I think your neice may have been given good advice.

There really are so many variables in play under this system and not only her scores but the scores of her whole cohort come into play.

It you have an average cohort of students then doing well in the 'tough' subjects works well. If you have a very bright cohort then sometimes it is adviseable to be top of the class in the lower level maths that 3rd or 4th in the higher level maths class. This will all depend on the Core Skills results of the group.

If you're with an average group but bright kids in your subjects then you may want to go with a tertiary entrance rank instead, where instead of getting the 'average mark' for your school in core skills, your own score becomes your own.

Sounds confusing? It can be and I'm probably not doing a great job explaining it. Or school does a great job though with a Year 12 advisor that knows the system inside out.

My eldest three have all taken different pathways. The eldest was bright in a bright group so stuck it out in the top classes.

The next one was above average but not outstanding in an extremely bright group ( the set a quite few records with their results) so he changed two subjects to easier ones and topped the subject.

The third one was more middle of the road in a great group. He was good at core skills though so opted out of the class result and had to bank on his own results being good.

It really is about knowing the class and the system inside out.

As for taking an artistic class, well, some of those are very highly regarded.

The sciences? Well, they're only looking for an ability to do well in a high school science, it won't matter too much which one.

ask her if they have had any group or individual counselling on this matter. If not, get her to approach someone at the school, ask the questions and get the bal rolling.