[SlinkyMalinki]

I'm at my wits end with my 3 year old DD's behavior.

Up until this year, she's generally been quite good and a pleasure to be around. She's always been really active and likes to be kept busy. She's got very advanced language skills, and an incredible memory. She's always been fairly good with trying new food and eating well, but we've also never really put too many restrictions on things either - she's allowed the occasional ice cream, or Happy Meal etc. We've never really made a big deal about food, just continually let her explore different things.

The biggest issue we're having at the moment starts with dinner time. As soon as her plate hits the table, she goes into battle mode, and is wearing DH and I down. Firstly it started just with her playing around with her food, and just generally being difficult - saying she doesn't like things, when she ate them perfectly happy the day before, or crying about being given the wrong color plate or cup. Our general rule is, you don't have to eat everything, just try 1 bite of each different thing on the plate. We tend not to plate up anything we know she genuinely doesn't like - off the top of my head roast pumpkin is one of them, so we just don't serve it to her. Last night we had roast beef, potatoes, peas and corn - she likes all of these things, but shoved the plate across the table when it was put in front of her. She started screaming about it, and when we ignored that, she went and banged on the babies bouncer, then started slamming cupboard doors.

It continues until bed time - sitting on the toilet for over half an hour to stall bed time, screaming for ages if we say one less bed time book if it's getting really late. DH has always done her night time routine with her - bed, books, and lay down with her for a short while for a chat as she's falling to sleep. Now when he gets up to go out of her room, she screams and cries that she doesn't want him to leave. Some nights he's in there for a couple of hours until she falls asleep in exhaustion.

Toileting is another issue. I initially started TTing when she was about 2.5, and while she "got it", she completely refused to use the toilet, as she was scared of wearing underpants and wanted to keep wearing nappies. I let the matter drop for a while, to give her more time. Just after her 3rd birthday, she changed her mind, and wanted to start wearing them, and TT-ed relatively quickly, with no accidents for a few months. In the last few weeks, she's started weeing on the floor nearly every time. Some time it's for a reaction - twice this week she's purposely weed in front of me when I'm bf-ing the baby and couldn't get to her. The rest of the time, she just don't want to stop doing what she's doing to go to the toilet. She's unfazed by feeling wet. As the initial toilet training was such as issue, I've tried to ignore this behavior, but it's also been escalating.

With regards to dinner time, we've tried a few things - rewarding good behavior - stickers, getting a fancy dersert, or an extra story at night - it worked for a short while, then stopped. We've tried punishing - bath toys taken away (as dinner is taking too long to have a play in the bath), one less story at night - this causes hours of screaming, as does getting put in time out. We've tried ignoring it, saying if she doesn't feel like eating, she doesn't have to - and then she gets up to even worse things, like hitting her sister, scaling the kitchen bench, to get attention. We just have no idea what else to try.

During the day, apart from the new toilet issue, she's generally not too bad, particularly if we're busy. She goes to sports lessons one day a week, day care twice a week, and usually a play date most weeks. On the weekend we're busy shopping, visiting relatives, or having a family day going to markets, down the coast, to the museum, or out to lunch, etc. I also try and spend one or two days at home a week just relaxing - this is when her behavior is usually the worst. She does enjoy doing craft activities, watching a little bit of TV, she'll spend some time playing with toys, and has recently started enjoying simple board/card games.

We do have a new baby (3 months old). Most of last year I was pregnant, quite sick, and with serious back pain - in the last couple of months of pregnancy, DD was left to amuse herself a fair bit, becuase I just couldn't get around - lots of TV, and quiet play in the play room. Since the babies arrival, I've actually spent a lot more "quality" time with her, doing craft, playing games, etc. However most of the bad behavior does seem attention seeking.

She tries to think of things to get upset about - earlier I said she had a great memory:- last year we went on holiday, and gave her a magnet activity board - one of the little pieces (out of probably about 30) went missing after the first time she used it, and each time she looks at the thing, she has a cry over the missing magnet. When she'd just turned two, she was given a drawing board, which got broken (not by her), and had to be thrown out - she wasn't overly attached to the thing, but still regularly says "I can't believe you threw my toy out". We did by her a replacement, but couldn't get an identical one, and over a year later still complains that it's not the same.

She's also recently had a couple of genuine upsets - she moved up to the 'big kids' room at day care, and for a while was a little scared by one of the carers - quite a nice guy, but big and loud, and he scared her by playing a chasing game with some older boys. She now cries every morning at drop off, which I think has more turned into habit than genuine upset - she stops crying as soon as we leave, and runs around happily all day. I've actually seen her playing with the guy she didn't like in the last week.

The other (which is more of an issue), was using the toilet in a parents room, and accidentally setting off the hand dryer - it was super loud, and absolutely terrified her. She now refuses to use the toilet anywhere other than home, day care, or her grandparents. Even if we walk past a toilet block, she starts crying.

So, in summary, I feel like I really don't know how to cope with her. I'm started to constantly yell, which I hate, but I'm just exhausted from the constant battles with her.

So, apologies for this turning into quite an essay, but there's just lots going on, and I'm really struggling to cope at the moment. I'm not entirely sure what I'm hoping to achieve by posting here, maybe reassurance this is typical 3 year old behavior (or not), or advice on discipline, or tackling any of the issues.

It's even started causing issues between me and DH - we're both just so exhausted by her behavior at night, we start getting snippy at each other over little things. And he's the most patient, relaxed person I've ever met. I typically am too. Everyone keeps asking me how I'm coping with the new baby - and she's a breeze - good feeder, good sleeper, happy disposition. But I don't think I'm coping with my older DD at the moment, I'm spending nights crying, and then feeling relief on the days she goes off to day care, and then feeling guilty about feeling that way.

This post has been edited by SlinkyMalinki: 01/03/2012, 05:57 PM

[Working_Mummy]

OMG
My son turned 3 last week and i thought we missed the terrible 2's. But its started and its horrible.

Almost everything you said we are having issues with to.

Breakfast / Dinner fights
Bedtime crying
Wetting pants (Toilet Trained since 22 months)
Crying at Swimming
Whinging

I just don't know what to do.

DS has always eaten EVERYTHING (for example he eats curries that are too hot for me saying its his favorite), breakfast is 2 weatbix, Cup Milk, Piece of Toast & Banana.
He stuffs around and says he is full without touching anything - it was a fight today to eat 1/4 piece of toast.
Spills it on purpose so he doesn't have to eat it.

He often gets a head start on dinner and is near finished when we sit down
Now he complains it yucky, too hot, don't like it etc etc
Havent had the wrong plate though

Bedtime, was always a wash of the face, clean teeth and into bed, light off, door closed, kiss & see you in the morning - fast asleep in 10 mins. Now he cries for the light on, door open, mucks around with covers & pillows for 2-3 hours. 2 nights ago we said light on for 5 minutes and then it goes off. We followed through and had crying for maybe 10 mins and eventually settled and went to sleep. Last night did the same thing and he whimpered by rolled over and went to sleep - hopefully we are over this hurdle. He is generally asleep by 7pm and woken on kindy days at 7am, weekends it can be 9 or later. Still does 3hour sleeps at home and 2 hours at kindy during the day so i don't think we have overtired issues - maybe too much sleep.

Wetting pants we know is about attention - he is only doing it at kindy and its because the other kids were just toilet training and getting stickers for success, a $2 sticker book at kindy has solved this.

DS has been doing swimming for 2 years and LOVED it, excited to get there, didn't want to get out. Head in swimming across the pool. And now this month with 2 new kids in his class who both cried the first week he has been crying for mummy and not listening to the teacher. He could float on his back and just wont do it. Not sure what we can do about this - but i dont honestly think he is scared, just part of this 3 year old 'thing'.

And the Whinging is sending me and DH mental. It is sooo draining!

The best thing we have come up with so far is 'Rules', i guess we have always had them, but we have had to take it to a new level. Telling him that what we are saying is the RULE. We had a chat about the house being a family house with Mummy & Daddies rules. If you be good you can stay in the house, if you don't listen to the rules you will have to go outside. Very extreme for a 3 year old but he just would not listen. He got put outside the front door for a minute the other night. Timeout generally works but it wasn't this time and we didn't know what else to do. I feel terrible about it, but its really worked, he has told me a few times that not doing the rules means you have to go outside in the 'cold' (We are in brisbane its been 32degrees).

This post has been edited by Working_Mummy: 22/02/2012, 11:40 AM

[2xpink]

Is she overtired? Does she still have a day sleep? My DD2 gave up her day sleep at 2.5, but I made her lie down with all the toys and have a rest.. Sometimes she fell asleep, but a quiet rest made her bearable. She used to fall asleep in the car, so if I was driving far in the day I would make it when she would have normally napped. My parents live about 30 minutes away, so we visited them a bit.

I got around tea issues by serving her tea at 5pm - a healthy snack plate, with a mixture of veges, fruit, protein. She would then sit with us at tea time, might eat something, might not. She might then have dessert - again something healthy.

She also might be a bit bored when you are home, and need a bit more exercise/stimulation. We used to have adventures, where we would just go and walk around the neighbourhood a bit, see what we could find. My DD just goes crazy if she is inside for most of the day.

I don't really have many ideas about the TT. Maybe a chart and reward system?

Sorry you are having a hard time - hope something in here helps!

[MakeLoveNotBacon]

My only advice is "this too shall pass". Definitely been there, done that with ds. Giving him the wrong coloured cup at dinner could cause the sky to fall in. And the exact same thing happened to us with the hand dryer, it went off accidently one time and I couldn't get ds to come into the public toilet for over a year I think. He's nearly 5 now and still sometimes asks if I am sure the "noisy dryer" won't go off.

My experience with a fussy eater is just ignore it. If she doesn't want to eat, she can go into her room and quietly play. PP's suggestion of being tired is a good one though - I feed both my kids around 4.30-5 or they get too tired to eat well.

I think the new baby is definitely compounding the problem but some of it is age too. It sounds like you are doing all the right things, it just takes time. Hang in there.

[winkywonkeydonke...]

We had a few of the same issues with our DS.

What worked for the dinner time battle was we changed dinner time to 5-5:30pm . He was just too tired to be rational about it. Is that something you could try?
As soon as we did an earlier dinner he was so much better behaved and bedtime was easier too.

[wallofdodo]

Another one saying me too. The 3 yrs old has become a bit of a handful. We have some good days, but most evenings are rather challenging. Even down to the food. Normally a great eater, but has become a little fussy. Eating earlier seems to help, but it is not always possible.

I put it down to tiredness. However we just can't get him to sleep during the day.

So I am just hoping we all weather the storm and this phase will pass like the others.

This post has been edited by wallofdodo: 22/02/2012, 11:54 AM

[Guest_Buy Me A Pony !_*]

The thing that really jumps out to me is the hand dryer incident. It sounds through most of the stories that you're telling that she identifies with fear and feels trapped (like you said by habit) in her responses. Can you attempt to desensitise her in some way to her habits? So perhaps remove them altogether... remove the routines that she reacts to and replace them with new ones. I know it sounds like a radical rethink might be required but it could be as simple as not referring to dinner and feeding her meal earlier in the afternoon, then when the usual dinner time rocks around she's already in the bath playing happily with a full tummy, and without really noticing a large change in routine as one follows the other anyway and there's no fear associated with bathtime. Insert a new routine in at dinner time (such as milk and fruit) which replaces the afternoon tea "snack".

With bed time you might just have to change it altogether and place a strict limit on reading in bed followed by continued reassurance from nearby. You could find a job for yourself to do near her door (like folding laundry) so that she can hear one of you is nearby but not necessarily transitioning from very close to absent iykwim. Allow her to self settle within reason, knowing that you're very close but otherwise occupied.

With the hand dryer incident she might just need a really simple explanation along the lines of "it's like a big hairdryer". Show her your hairdryer and dry her hands with it whenever you can think to, then when you think she might be ready for it, take her on an excursion to explore a local public hand dryer without the baby and hold her close to give her reassurance and that feeling of safety. It might sound OTT but if you turn it from a fearful experience into a fun one then she could change her reaction. Remember that when we're on the toilet with our pants down is a time when most of us would feel most vulnerable and she's taken a big fright (relative to her experience) that she associates with public toilets. So simply turn public toilets into places that have hand driers rather than a purely functional experience. Don't attempt to use the public toilet until you're sure she's confident and happy about the hand drier thing and start with a hand wash and dry before the toilet (which is good hygiene practice anyway). Also be aware that a child's perception of a hand drier is different to our own as they're generally up high and blasting air downward so from the child's perspective it's a large loud, "bigger than they are" experience. You can use the hairdryer to replicated that for her and give her a playful blast of cooler air from overhead, all the time explaining to her that you're with her having fun with it too and being careful to not scare her with it. Start gently and build it up. I'd watch though that she's not got any sensory issues prior to doing this sort of stuff as some kids are just overwhelmed by their senses and can't cope at all with these situations, so "encouraging" them in this way can easily lead to overload. If it's a sensory issue then you'll need professional support with it.

[bettymm]

OP
My DD has been doing exactly the same things!! and we had the exact same thing with the hand dryer! ha! she will use the public toilets now but makes me promise i wont put the" scary noise on" Our battles revolve around Dinner time, going to the toilet, getting dressed in the morning.

Her challenging behaviour absoultely escalated during my pregnancy, including public melt downs and hitting etc. i had a baby 2 months ago. since bubs arrival things have been better actually. I think the anxiety about what was going to change and also me not being able to do much caused her to act out. DH and I were at our wits end!!

One thing i introduced that i still use now if she is carrying on is counting to ten, and then confiscating something..no mucking around no yelling and fighting .

For example, i ask her nicely 2-3 times to do something eg.. get dressed or whatever and if she still hasnt i say , "ok, ive asked you nicely now im going to count to 10 and if you havent done x , im taking your play dough and putting it inmy room so you cant use it today" ..i followed through with this threat a few times and now i barely get to 2 and she is doing what she should be.

Dinner is still a battle. Same thing as your DD. For this we have realised that the more worked up you get and the more tension around dinner time the worse it gets.

Things i find help are:

Limit afternoon snacks so they are genuinly hungry at dinner time,

If she starts getting up and down and throwing the food around i say "Ok Violet you dont seem hungry but if you dont eat any dinner you dont get anything else tonight ..(she usually has yogurt and fruit for dessert and glass of milk before bed) so..im going to count to ten and if you havnt started eating ill take it away"

These things have helped for us enourmously. We tried time out but she would get so worked up and upset we would end up having to comfort her for aaaaages and the whole thing was blown out of proportion. The counting to ten works better for us

Good luck! i think any anxieties or changes in their little lives will have an affect on their behaviour. Plus, they are trying to assert themselves and things like eating and toileting are some of the few things THEY can control.

This post has been edited by bettymm: 22/02/2012, 12:06 PM

[MamaTwo]

My DS is a little younger but we had some of these issues arise when our DD was about 3 months old too - when discussing it with the Health Nurse, she suggested it was because babies tend to wake up a bit more at this age and get/need more attention than a newborn. So while DS initially was quite blasé about the new baby, he reacted with refusing to eat etc when DD got to this age. could this be a possible reason for your DD's behavior? He didn't show any negative feelings towards the baby, just acted out for attention, mostly with me rather than DH. I don't really have any answers though - much of the behaviour improved with time but the food issues got worse before starting to get better, nearly one year later. Hope you find a solution soon, I really sympathise with you...know all about the crankiness with DH and crying at night. Take care OP.

[ally0812]

my son started this recently.. he;s 3.5. my punishments-time out, no tv, a smack if he's being destructive/ throwing thinmgs/ kicks or bites, didnt do squat.

now i say 'you dont want dinner? thats ok. BED'


you wet on the floor? (after being toilet trained for 18 months?!) BED.

you bite me?BED.



suprisingly this has helped. and if he refused dinner i will not make him second dinner, he eats the first one or nothing! three nights of going hungry and he's eating what he's given...sounds harsh, but i cant have to be making ten different dinners every night til he decides to eat. i think they all try it and as you have new baby DD probably wants to be centre of your world as she always has been...
this isnt anyones fault, she just is unsure-confused why this new person is taking up time-space that used to be entirely hers. no one method is going to work for everyone, but decide on a punishment and get DH to back you up. soon she'll realise you mean it and should settle down