[Rocky Road]

Ok, as it says in the title, this post in inspired by the Grant Hackett situation and all the opinions I have read about it online. I will try to explain my line of thinking, but it might seem a bit scrambled, so bear with me!

I am an early childhood teacher. I work with so many different children with different personalities. I teach children who are so shy that it takes a lot of effort just to get them to play/interact with others, I teach children who are kind and considerate to others and I teach children who are good and nice, but who get frustrated easily and lash out by yelling/hitting other children or throwing things. All of these children have good and bad behaviour at different times, but as an educator, it is my job to acknowledge a child's personality/temperament and to support and teach them according to their learning styles/needs.

Now, onto the Grant Hackett/domestic violence thing. I have noticed over and over again that people keep commenting that 'there is no excuse for violence' or 'it's not normal'. I'm curious to know WHY people think it's not 'normal' to get angry or throw/break things? Of course, for SOME people, it's NOT normal, because they are naturally calm people and wouldn't dream of doing anything like that, even as a child. But what about those who are naturally angry/frustrated people? Why do we accept that children are all different and try to teach them right from wrong in a positive manner, and yet we expect them to erase that side of their personality the moment they turn 18 and become an adult who should know better? Is it that easy to turn off?

I think the fact that violence/domestic violence happens so much is enough to show us that it IS normal. Not ACCEPTABLE, of course - but normal, yes! Rather than waiting for domestic violence to become a problem later in life, why don't we teach anger management skills in schools? For children who grow up with domestic violence and haven't been shown any other way to manage their anger or haven't learnt any coping skills, this would be invaluable.

And in regard to Grant Hackett not understanding the gravity of what he has done and not acknowledging that his behaviour is indeed considered domestic violence - is it any wonder? For years only physical abuse was considered domestic violence and verbal abuse was not. When I was growing up, it was 'sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me'. I still struggle to consider yelling/swearing etc as domestic violence, when there are people truly suffering from horrific physical violence. And now that the definition has changed again to include throwing/breaking things, how are people to know? Maybe Grant has no idea his behaviour fits into the 'new' definition of domestic violence?

I am also amazed at the attitude that 'it doesn't matter what the woman did, it doesn't excuse violence'. If a man gave a woman a curfew and locked her out of her own house, everyone would be screaming domestic violence (control etc) - and yet, when it happens to the man it is ok? Why?

Do you think we have taken this 'no tolerance policy' for domestic violence/violence in general thing too far? Do you think we are setting ourselves up for failure by providing no room for emotions/natural personalities/instincts? If babies/toddlers/children/animals use violence as a natural instinct or response to a situation, then it is obviously pretty normal, surely? We don't think they are evil, horrible people because they lashed out. We just correct the behaviour and move on.

And a serious question to all who read/reply to this thread (if you managed to get anything out of my scrambled thoughts!):

Have you ever thrown/broken something in anger or frustration? Have you said something you regretted saying later on? Did you think of yourself as a perpetrator of domestic violence? I read a thread a while back where a woman threw the family Christmas tree outside in anger/frustration because her children were not behaving and most people found it funny (yes, I found it pretty funny too). By the definition of violence/domestic violence that most people are using in regard to Grant Hackett, most people should have thought this was domestic violence too, right? But they didn't. Why? Because it was a woman?

[tenar]

Surely part of your work as an educator is to teach children how to manage their difficult feelings appropriately as well as their pleasant feelings. In that sense, anger management is most definitely taught in schools - I can see my 3yo's kindy teacher teaching her and the other children anger management skills, starting with (appropriate at this level), things like "don't just scream, use your words".

I don't know (nor do I care) what Grant Hackett did, but I think that while having violent urges is quite a normal thing, one of the hallmarks of adult behaviour is the ability to control those urges (along with other inappropriate desires). So no, for adults, violence itself isn't normal, in my opinion.

[mks81]

I think the main thing that screams out at me here between your comparison of children and an adult with throwing items and being abusive...is pricely that. They are children and then there are adults who know what is right and wrong behaviour. Children are taught that this is wrong and develop steps along their childhood to behave appropriately.

Personally I am in two minds about the locking him out of his own house. I think the time she locked him out however was the fact she knew he had been drinking heavily again and what happened the last time? He threw and ruined her possessions around the house. Perhaps she knew what was coming. Or maybe your right, she got the cranks on him not being home on time and was 'teaching' him a lesson....lot of effort though to change the locks I would have thought.

Personally I think they have both handled this wrong and the main suffers are the children.

[BetteBoop]

I am also amazed at the attitude that 'it doesn't matter what the woman did, it doesn't excuse violence'. If a man gave a woman a curfew and locked her out of her own house, everyone would be screaming domestic violence (control etc) - and yet, when it happens to the man it is ok? Why?

Do you think we have taken this 'no tolerance policy' for domestic violence/violence in general thing too far? Do you think we are setting ourselves up for failure by providing no room for emotions/natural personalities/instincts? If babies/toddlers/children/animals use violence as a natural instinct or response to a situation, then it is obviously pretty normal, surely? We don't think they are evil, horrible people because they lashed out. We just correct the behaviour and move on.

Have you ever thrown/broken something in anger or frustration? Have you said something you regretted saying later on? Did you think of yourself as a perpetrator of domestic violence? I read a thread a while back where a woman threw the family Christmas tree outside in anger/frustration because her children were not behaving and most people found it funny (yes, I found it pretty funny too). By the definition of violence/domestic violence that most people are using in regard to Grant Hackett, most people should have thought this was domestic violence too, right? But they didn't. Why? Because it was a woman?

In the police report of that night, his wife alleged he threw her across the room into a window "like a rag doll".

Is that enough to stop your hand wringing about taking domestic violence too seriously? Or should we accept that a bit of smack around is normal behaviour?

And I wouldn't worry too much about our insane "no tolerance" approach to domestic violence. It's all rhetoric. We don't really mean it.

As EB demonstrates every time a story like this emerges, blaming the victim allows us to tolerate domestic violence very well indeed. We just call her a liar and him a victim and viola! Crisis averted.

And I doubt the majority of humans are violent at any point in life. So no, I don't believe violence is normal according to any measure you want to use.

And I love the attempts to minimise what he did. Throwing a toy is hardly the same as trashing an entire apartment from top to bottom.

This post has been edited by BetteBoop: 26/06/2012, 02:07 PM

[Snagglepussed]

Have you ever thrown/broken something in anger or frustration? YES
Have you said something you regretted saying later on? Many times
Did you think of yourself as a perpetrator of domestic violence? No but I have "lost the plot" a couple of times so no doubt someone would think I was at certain times! Certainly pounded into my philandering ex a few times!
I read a thread a while back where a woman threw the family Christmas tree outside in anger/frustration because her children were not behaving and most people found it funny (yes, I found it pretty funny too). Nup probably not funny but I have done similar things myself - not that extreme - but again, an outsider may think so!
By the definition of violence/domestic violence that most people are using in regard to Grant Hackett, most people should have thought this was domestic violence too, right? Yes I guess so! But they didn't. Why? Because it was a woman? highly likely but too cut and dried to say that!
I think what Grant Hackett did was stupid and dangerous! his twins were in the house and witnessed it (from what I have gathered) - that is inexonerable - woman or man!!!!!!
His downfall was that he is totally in the public eye - this kind of stuff goes on daily in our society but we jsut don't hear about it....

I do think that our "social norms" are now more of a situation where extreme, overt expressions of emotion (be they positive or negative) have become a matter of public scrutiny...... Not saying that DV is acceptable at all (same as you aren't either)......but by the same token we should not be quashing all emotional outbursts as unhealthy and unacceptable!!!!

I love the Japanese process of workers being able to go into a "screaming" room where they CAN externalise their frustrations etc BEFORE it becomes a problem!!!!! (I remember doing this myself when I worked in hospitality - I would go into the cool room and scream - literally "cool off" after my HORROR commute in Sydney traffic) - LOL - it was insanely cathartic!

Anger management SHOULD be a core skill imparted to our children...... but how much more can a teacher bear in her/his already busy day! Just imagine!!!!!!!

[liveworkplay]

I could say a lot but sure, people can get angry/frustarted but it is NOT normal to then throw/break something to get your frustrations out. I think anyone who does this needs help with managing their feelings. It is a total overreaction. I have told my DH to leave the house on more then one occasion when he has trhown something to the ground in frustration/anger. It is just totally unacceptable. If a child does it, then they too need to be shown/disaplined as to a more constructive way to handle their feelings.

ETA: and no, I have never, nor would I ever, throw or destroy something in anger or frustration and before you say, no I am not a naturally placid person and I have had more reasons then probably a lot of people on EB to be out of control angry.

This post has been edited by liveworkplay: 26/06/2012, 02:11 PM

[YodaTheWrinkledO...]

In the police report of that night, his wife alleged he threw her across the room into a window "like a rag doll".

just a quick question, where is this reported? Is this publically available? (the police report, I mean)

[MakeLoveNotBacon]

Is this serious? You are seriously comparing the behaviour of a child to an adult? Excusing violent behaviour because the poor dear might not understand the 'new' definition of domestic violence?

You are essentiallly excusing GH's behaviour. That's the point of this thread isn't it? We already have a thread going on the idiot, why start another one?

[Blossom77]

Grownups have to control themselves. It is never OK to be a tool. I have never thrown anything or broken anything in anger as an adult, just as I no longer have tantrums in the supermarket or lift my dress up over my head to show people my nappy.

I am always interested in these people who claim they cannot control their behaviour (eg hitting people, throwing things). How do they manage to hold down a job? How is it they are not getting arrested for violence every time something annoying happens on the bus? I suspect the answer is that they can control themselves when they think they'll be in trouble. So they can control themselves when there are clear consequences to their behaviour (eg losing their job) but suddenly become uncontrollable only when they feel they can get away with it (eg at home).

[Wanalta]

I still struggle to consider yelling/swearing etc as domestic violence, when there are people truly suffering from horrific physical violence. And now that the definition has changed again to include throwing/breaking things, how are people to know?

I guess being screamed at and called a 'fat lazy c**t', 'stupid f**king b**ch' and a 'useless f**king mother' to me is not normal behaviour and at the time it was happening to me, I was terrified and considered just how far my XH would go. Its very threatening having a man, much stronger than myself, standing inches from me screaming in my face. Not easy to dismiss as 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me.'

There are women who have been through worse than I yet their experiences with DV dont invalidate mine.

As for locking someone out of their home, I have locked XH out after her was blind drunk, had written off his brand new car drink driving and I didn't want him in the house as he was abusive and threatening. My children didn't need to see that and XH chose not to control himself so he was declined entry.
XH locked me out of my home when he was again drunk and raging, except he had our 2 year old daughter inside at the time. Both times I was terrified for my own safety and that of my child.

Both my children have been exposed to DV and they still manage their anger better than XH. They know to get angry is normal - its how you deal with that anger that matters.