Hi,

Just wanted you opinions on something that is going on atm.

Okay picture this: you are in labour and a midwife thinks you need pain relief but you say no, should she be allowed to give it to you anyway?
Actually IS she allowed to give it to you anyway? ie: against your wishes?

I did do a search but i cannot really find the answer and i thought i would get more traffic if i posted it here.

WDYT?

Lisa

I think if she doesn't have your consent and you are able to make a decision (ie. not unconcious), then technically it's illegal....somebody else correct me if i'm wrong tho...

It would be a violation of your rights if you were forced to have pain relief.

There are certain orders that can be made, called treatment orders if a person does not consent to medical treatment, but they are around mental illness, not to do with pregnancy.

NO!


No it is illegal for her to give it to you without your consent.(or should I say you have legal recourse if it is done without consent) There IS a little grey area here though. If you are incapable of consenting and next of kin are not there to consent or there is no time to obtain consent from next of kin as it is life saving. In your example though, I dont think any of this applies

The trouble is, if you are alone and this happens it is basically your word against the midwife. Why they would do this I dont know but you do here stories.

Ahh but you see, just because your unconcious and can't feel anything, doesn't actually mean that your body isn't in pain does it? It just means that your brain isn't registering the nerve messages telling you you're in pain. Does that make sense to anyone else apart from me?

They definitely can't give it to you if you haven't consented, and as opposed to other forms of medical treatment, another person can't decide if you are in pain, can they? so something like pain relief in labour should be your decision ONLY.

Okay thanks ladies.

Just wanted to clarify before i go in there.

I will tell you the story (might even post my story on eb one of these days)

I was induced and after being on drip for 9 hours they thought i needed pethadine i said no.

Now i have nothing against people who have pethadine or want it ect.. i did my research and decided that it wasnt for me. Anyway she kept on asking me : "do you want pethadine?" I kept on saying no. this continued for around 10 mins when she cracked it and said "i am going to get some pethadine" now considering the amount of pain i was in i think i was pretty nice in replying that "i dont f***ing want it"

Fast forward she brings the pethadine in and sits on the side of the bed bringing with her another midwife so then i had the two of them along with my DP at the time telling me that i needed to have pethadine, this continued on for around 30 mins.

finally i just said yes because having the two of them and my DP at the time telling me that i needed to have it, well it wears you down.
Anyway they said to tell them when i was having a contraction and they would shove it in - well i had two and i refused to tell them, finally they cottoned on and asked if i was having a contraction and i said yes but i dont want it, well she shoved it in anyway so i put my hand around to take it out myself in the meanwhile screaming my lungs out saying "take the f**king thing out, i dont want it take it out" and she pushed my hand away and said that i needed to have it.

Now look i know i said yes but am i allowed to change my mind?

I mean when i called the hospital to make a complaint i casually asked one of the midwives if it was common practice to administer pain relief after a patient has changed their mind? She said she herself would not have administered it/or if the needle was already in it should have been taken out straight away.

Fast forward to now after lodging my complaints and now i get to see them in a room and i dont know what to say to them, Okay now tell me honestly do you think i am being unfair in comlpaining about it? Its okay i can take the crap but to me it just wasnt fair. I mean when your in that much agony you can only take so much?

Lisa

OM*G jacks mummy.

I would be so so so angry!!!! Im just angry reading it!!!!

I think you have every right to be comlpaining about this. I would be taking it even futher.


My midwife asked me if i wanted any pain relief and i said no, she then said to me that she wouldnt ask again and if i wanted it i would have to ask. And that was the way i wanted it. I did my research too and didnt want an epi or pethadine.

You are totally in the right to be making a complaint about that. That midwife denied you your rights. Please DO go in there with all your confidence.

You ARE right!

You have every right i was in the same postion as you didn't want it.I had midwlfes and Dp saying you need it I said no and Dp said do it anyway and before I knew it they gave it to me then 25 mins later I was pushing my girl out and they said oops whouldn't have done that you were to far gone.Bubs came out all drugged up and needed o2 to breath on her own.

GO for it I say it happens to much .I had given birth to a 10 pound baby before this happen without drugs Im sure I could of done her 8 pounds without it

god no!!! What Elemental said, it was assault Complain and complain loudly, because what she did was completely wrong and I would doubt it would be hospital policy to act that way (and if it is, obviously someone needs to complain!!!).

I hope you get a satisfactory result out of it.

OMG I am disgusted by your treatment. Just remember though not all midwives r like that. Word of mouth can get u a really good one. Hope all is well for u now though.

I agree with Elemental. What you have described may well constitute assault - a criminal offence. Do not second guess yourself. You could report your story straight to the police.

As an aside - this is why it's so important to have someone who is your advocate in the room, whether it be your partner or someone else if your partner can't stand up for you for whatever reason. I was like Jack's Mummy, I didn't want pethadine. And when the midwife tried to talk me into having it, my DH was there to back me up. I made my wishes very clear pre-labour.

Definately not right! I would be going ahead with the complaint. You made your wishes quite clear to the midwife.

zoe

WOW I'm surprised that it has taken this long to get a meeting, i would have been complaining straight away, it is your body your choice, no one can make you have anything you dont want, Can your DP that was there at the time be a back up to you saying you didnt want it?

Goodlcuk i hope this gets sorted out for you and you get the result you want, I know Dp is being reminded now what i do and dont want as in pain relief when im in labour

That's about as ethical as me slipping some rohypnol into your drink because I think you could do with a nap.

Lisa Who is going to be in the room when you have the meeting to discuss the situation? Make sure you have someone with you who is independent of the hospital. Like your GP, or a trusted friend, even a representative from Maternity Coalition. Your DP may not be the best person to be with you, as he also had a part in making sure you were given a drug that you flat out refused. Even though his heart was in the right place, he was still misguided When you are in there, say as little as possible, try to keep it as unemotional as possible. State your story simply, stress that you did NOT want the peth, that you felt railroaded by 2 midwives and your DP, that even when the injection was being given, you withdrew your consent. Maybe write it down and read it out at the meeting. What happened to you is assault, yet due to it being in the medical setting, it is a murky area- sadly.

There are so many women like you who decline narcotic pain relief, only to find themselves administered with it while in the throes of a contraction (who can fight then?) or are basically bullied by staff/loved ones into taking the drug. Not many actually complain, or procede with anything past a letter, as it is deemed to have been done in their best interestes by 'caring' staff..

Best of luck with it!!

OP: I am absolutely shocked reading your story

I totally agree with the PP's, that is ASSAULT, you made it perfectly clear you did not want the peth, you confirmed that fact verbally and physically to the point you were fighting them as they tried to inject it!!

Your say goes, if you don't want it, there is no way they should override your decision.

That midwife deserves to be sacked and charged with assault for her actions!

I am also very sad your DP did not stand up for you

I agree with the PP who suggested a representative from Maternity Coalition to attend the meeting with you, excellent idea and I also agree that you should file a police report about the assault made on you.

If anyone stuck a needle containing a narcotic in you without your consent anywhere else you would have them charged, surely. Just because the woman is a midwife and it happened in a hospital makes no difference to my mind, she did it without your permission.

Head into that meeting armed to the teeth with information. I Might actually ask my sister this morning her opinion on your situation (she is a solicitor specialising in medical negligence).

Best of luck OP, I will be following your story with interest.

Your story is horrifying. Having something done to my body without my consent whilst I'm in labour is my single biggest fear and one of the main reasons I seriously considered having a homebirth (have decided not to for financial reasons). Before I set foot inside a hospital I will be making my wishes very clear to hubby and my sister who's going to act as my doula during labour, so that if I'm railroaded into taking drugs etc then they can fight for my wishes.

If I were you I would not rest until I got some sort of justice for what had been done to you. Be brave - I applaude you for having the courage to fight this.

I agree with PP it is assault and hope you get it sorted soon good luck with it all

How disgusting!!! They were chemically restraining you! Absolutely not on at all! Honestly, who gives a damn! You are well within your right to complain. They had no right to administer the meds against your will! What is your dp's take on this?

Hayley

Hey

I am sorry to hear that - I was under the impression though that the doctor had to give pethadine - as with DD I asked for pethadine and was told - 'The doctor is busy and it will be too late when they get here and Midwives can't give it"

I agree though it is assualt and I would be going to the police too.

Good Luck

Liz

If you aren't already, please deal with this thru the Patient Advocate at the hospital where it happened. Do not go into the meeting by yourself and I agree that DH may not be the best person to be your supporter.

Before you go to the meeting, have a think about what YOU want to come out of this.

The other avenue you may be able to pursue is that the m/w will have to be registered thru the Nurses' Board in your state and they can take disciplinary action against her if she has acted unprofessionally.

Good luck!

Steph

The midwvies are allowed to give it. I had it in labour and it was the best thing!

I agree - it's assault! Im absolutely disgusted that someone could do that.

As far as I know (and this relates to my knowledge with Nursing so may be different with midwives)a nurse can get authority over the phone from a Dr to administer a drug (but need to get the order written up within 24 hours). With narcotics or drugs of addiction (like pethidine)there needs to be two nursing stuff to witness the administration of the drug.

Despite this, what the midwives did was absolutely wrong!

Hayley

Could the midwife say that she was 'out of control' or unable to make a conscious (sp) decision due to pain?

Not saying that that makes it ok, but Im sure she'll do her best to 'squirm' out of it!

Paulette

I'd be cranky and would definitely do something about it, with DD1 the doctors hassled me and hassled me to have pethadine and I kept saying no and I was angry that they kept insisting, when I had DD2 I chose to go to the birthing centre knowing they wouldn't offer pain relief but if I wanted it I could have it. I think it is a violation of your rights.

Even though after two natural births without drugs, next time I will be begging for an epidural.

That really is disgusting.Good luck with it all!!!!

That is sooo wrong... no way should you have been given anything if you said no in any way shape or form!

That's shocking. I agree with what amicus says - try to have a legal representative with you. You were assaulted and I am so sorry and angry that this happened to you.

My midwife was so patient-led that my DH had to suggest that maybe I could do with some gas and air before she would raise the issue. All pain relief had to be my request, not her suggestion.

Oh ladies,

You all have no idea how much it all means to me what you have written.



I first complained to the hospital itself, who then wrote a letter back to me saying that i gave complate consent and didnt once say that i didnt want it!!

I called them and asked them what they consider the word "no" to mean? They said they couldnt help me any further and if i wanted to take it further i would have to complain to the department of health or something which i have done hence why this meeting is taking place


Well i hadnt thought about it i thought i would waltz in there have a big yell and walk back out hopefully with both of them tripping over flat on their faces on the way out.
But maybe i should take my mum as she was in the room too. (she was sitting on the seat doing her "take 5" magazine)


This is what frustrates me even more is the fact that when i first arrived at the hospital they asked what pain releif i wanted as i was being induced and i said gas and an epi no peth, the midwife then turned around and said that gas does nothing and if i have an epi i would have to have a forceps delivery as i wouldnt be able to push the baby out. Now i looked at her and though what planet do you come from because i know of several people who could push their baby out without forceps. Anyway she then asked me about peth and i said straight out to her that i didnt want it because of the way it effects the baby. She then told me that i wouldnt be able to have an epi because they wont give you one unless you have had peth. i said i could live with that and i didnt want it.

BUT she DIDNT write it down on my notes.


what is this and how do i get in contact with them?

I am so angry at them, ha and this was only a small piece of my whole complaint.

Another was that after strict instructions under no circumstances was i to get an episiotomy, well they gave me one - and for no medical reason too!
In the reply to my complaint about this they said that my doc just wanted to end my pain and by giving me an episiotomy he was doing that!!

Well now why didnt you ask or even tell me you were going to give me one then? I thought maybe i just didnt notice but i asked my dp afterwards and he said he watched the whole thing down there and he never saw him do it and never once said anything to him about it!! ( and yes trust me i know i had one )

Another was that 10 mins after the peth they asked me what i wanted to do?
I then cottoned on that she was asking if i wanted an Epi i said yeah i want an epidural, well this was at 3pm, so i was laying there thinking that the epi was coming when at 5:30pm i finally said look where is the epi she said its too late hes gone home and i swear to god if i was there again i would hit her.
Anyway my mum told me that she actually told the anethitist (spel?) to go home at 3:30pm - she was in the waiting room and saw her do it.

Oh dear i just dont know how i am going to go, i know i am going to get really upset but i dont know how i could stop that.

Lisa

ETA: That i just realised how long this post actually is and i just wanted to say that if you got this far you are brilliant!!

I think it is a disgrace.
Don't go into the meeting with all guns blazing.
you need to sit down calmly and explain the situatiun as calmly as possible - I know this will be very hard as it will be emotional.
Can you take your Mum with you to explain the whole epi thing as well?
I would be absolutely furious if it had happened to me!

If I were you I would be angry and upset as well!! That midwife was not caring for you from an evidence based perspective, nor a supportive one. She was fulfilling her own agenda and trying to mould your experience to fit her own requirements!! And to cut your vagina without even telling you or your DP that it was to be done? Far out, that is truly assault! Oh, I am so p*ssed off for you! Some serious retraining and counselling is needed by the staff that you encountered at that hospital. Shocking stuff! And the sad thing is that your experience isn't isolated It probably happens every day to women just like yourself, who just want to birth with their wishes being respected..

Here is the link to the Maternity Coalition website, http://www.maternitycoalition.org.au/ so you can have a browse and see who they are and what they do. I see you are in Melbourne, here is the email address of the Victorian president, Louise Hartley, vicpresident@maternitycoalition.org.au . Hopefully you can organise to have one of the eloquent experienced members (many are interested consumers like you and me) either to come with you, or at least give you some pointers on how to best get the message through to the people that need to know.

I am so sorry you had to experience this. Yuck..

No! not the right thing to do. But just out of curiosity only, did it help? And did Jack suffer as a result of you having the pethidine? I only ask as I wanted pain relief after an enema and was told it was all too late. I had a 45 min birth but really didn't give too much of a sh*t whether I was administered pain relief of any description iykwim. I don't wear blue undies like Linda Carter.

Do you feel robbed that you had the pain relief??

I wouldn't personally pursue anything legally because thats just me, but I would've let that particular midwife know in no uncertain terms exactly what I thought of her (Nurse Ratched - "One Flew Over the Cookoos Nest") treatment of you. "Medication Time" or not, you had declined it in the end.

That is HORRENDOUS, Lisa.

You were assaulted. What a horrible thing to do to you. It sounds like she had some issues and could have cared less about you or your baby.

Could you write down what you want to say, in a bullet point list. Maybe even take a copy of your birth plan, so you can say look, here I detailed that I wanted gas and epi, no peth (I had the same thing in mine, no pethidine, preferably nothing, but epi if anything), and that you'd discussed the thing beforehand with your doc. I would say you're going to get in there and be overcome with emotions when you see them. It will be hard to be articulate.