which is a fair thing. We get the Adore choc. which is FT. Not really sure of price comparisons but here we pay about $4 a block at the supermarket.

ADORE

Actually, I don't understand this at all. Surely it is better to not eat chocolate rather than eat non fair trade if it is something you consider relevant.

Just like animal lovers eating meat. Hypocritical.

I don't care about what happens to animals, so I don't have that ethical dilemma. That is not to say that I think it is OK to be cruel to them unnecessarily, but anyway you kill an animal that will result in it being suitable for consumption will necessarily result in some trauma to that animal. There's no sense in pretending otherwise. To do so is kidding yourself.

I accept that my desire to eat meat will result in some cruely to animals. Why can't meat-eating animal lovers understand that? Its part and parcel of being at the top of the food chain. Do you think a shark feels remorse when he bites into a surfer?

The conditions animals are kept in before being killed do not have to be cruel and miserable. I could get killed tomorrow, but I am not being kept in conditions that are torturous (sp) and therefore while I am alive I am happy, well fed and not uncomfortable and I don't see why it should be any different for animals bred for slaughter.

Does a shark feel remorse? Where is the comparison? A shark is acting on it's instint which is to kill and eat. We as humans have the intelligence and resources available to make sure that nothing has to suffer, we don't have to hunt something down and rip it apart with our teeth.

A shark is one of the only animals that has us as prey. That is my point.

Humans are at the top of the food chain, Lords of all we survey. We don't need to domesticate animals to eat them. We fish, we hunt.

Animals kept on farms are actually much less miserable than they would be in the wild, even if they are kept in poor conditions. They go inside for a start. Not much inside in the wild. They have a regular, reliable food supply. Again, not something you see a lot of in the wild. They have security until their date with destiny arrives. If they have trouble birthing, a Vet comes. Same if they are sick. If they get too sick, they are euthenased.

If you consider the lives of farm animals in "cruel" farms, their lives are still a lot better than it would be in the wild. So for me, I really don't care.

A shark will prey on anything in it's territory and we go there and we know the risks.

How do you know the misery of animals? All creatures have their own instinct for survival in the wild.

I don't have a problem with farmed animals, I have a problem with some of the appalling treatment of the animals which goes beyond food and the conditions they live in. I have seen footage of pigs and chickens being kicked, slammed against walls, pigs having their noses cut off just for fun, being stomped on......it goes on. If you think that is fair and just then you do not have much of a soul, I however have way too much respect for the life of anything to accept those "conditions".

I am not pretending that if I eat free-range meat/ animal products, or animals kept in the best conditions possible whilst being raised for food, they will not suffer when being taken to slaughterhouses, or when being killed there. I am not saying you can avoid suffering when you eat animals, but you can reduce it, and surely you can avoid mistreatment and outright cruelty. If I do choose to eat meat/ animal products, isn't it better for me to reduce any suffering as much as possible, than say, "Oh, well, killing them is going to hurt them... may as well stick them in cages/ crates and breed as many as I can at once."

If we can decrease the misery of one animal (or many animals), then why not, even if in the end we are going to kill them? Why put animals through unnecessary suffering, in factory farm situations, just so we can all have plenty of cheap meat or eggs? Or, so farmers/ company owners can make more money?

I accept what you are saying as true, I just don't care enough to go out of my way and incur extra expense to avoid meat which has been poorly treated. Its not a factor in my thinking.

The only thing that gives me pause is that it is possible that animals which have been stressed while they are alive may not taste as good as those who have not. Take Kobe beef for example - those pampered cows are superior to your garden variety beef from Coles.

But, when in Japan recently, if I had been presented with the opportunity to sample whale meat I would have tried it. About the only thing I wont eat would be Fugu, but that's because I perceive it to be dangerous.

I can't see any difference in eating beef, or whale, or dog. I think I would probably not try dog, but that is because of cultural biases, nt because I believe there is anything inherently "wrong" with it.

Fair enough. Everyone has the right to live and eat how they want basically... perhaps in the future, personal choice will no longer matter though, when there is little to choose from, because poor (unsustainable) food choices are being made now by the majority, who are perhaps ignorant, or just too selfish, to comprehend the negative effects that certain food production has. I am only just now educating myself, and trying to make better choices, and this thread has helped me too.

because when I saw the pricetag on a cleavers organic chicken the other day I nearlly died. $26 dollars people, $26.

I did get the rather modestly priced freerange though. a nice $13.

$26 compared to $13... you eat chicken once a fortnight, instead of once a week.

(Or for us, once a month! Yes, $26 for a chicken seems like alot... was it a whole chicken? Can you use it for several meals?)

13 dollars feeds my family of six for three nights, the saving to me is enormous.

I only eat chicken once a fortnight, as a special occassion when DH is home for the whole weekend.

Nope, with 5 children to feed we cannot justify $26. Didnt I get your approval for the freerange? And yes. I do stretch it to boil the carcass for soup/stock.

Its nice that you have discovered something you are passionate about and are making the changes that you can feel good about. Its very important though, when we are discovering a new way of thinking, or broadening our education about the world, that we dont become sanctimonious. (I cant spell, sorry)

No need to be like that. Do you seriously think I am in here telling people what they should or shouldn't be buying... I am hardly an expert or living like a saint myself. I am trying to help people who say they cannot afford the difference (but perhaps who do want to buy the organic, not just free range, but the price difference is too much) to be able to do it. I do not know your budget, the amount of kids you have, or your cooking/ resourcefulness skills, do I?

Please tell me where I was being sanctimonious... I have just been honest and telling it how I think it will be. I know I am not an expert by any means, and have stated that several times already. Because I am willing to learn, does not mean I expect everyone else wants to, nor do I judge those who choose not to learn, or to make changes. I just think that may lead to people end up being forced into making changes instead...

I'm with you! Every so often I'll splash out on an organic chicken, but so long as they're not available in supermarkets to be marked down (as the free range ones sometimes are ) they're out of our price range.

I can just get two meat meals and a stock out of a regular free range chicken, but that's only by insisting on children eating all their vegies before going back for seconds of the roast. The day I forget to serve one vegie each that they don't like, we'll finish it in one sitting...

In some ways I don't either (which is why I eat none of them). However from a meat eating perspective there is a difference. A lot of species of whale are endangered and don't produce enough offspring to replenish the population!


As for that, it is blatantly untrue! Sharks prefer marine animals. Most people who die from shark attacks are surfers who are easily mistaken for seals or the like. There are very few shark attacks though and they don't actively hunt humans!

I used to pay exorbitant prices for organic veges that were often poor quality because they weren't grown locally and had been sitting in the shop for ages. (I lived in a small town - nonrural)

I have now taken to growing my own (organically) and I am really excited about it. I have already had rocket, spinach, lettuce and beans to die for and on the way there are cucumbers, broccoli, capsicum, tomatoes, leeks, beetroot, carrots and zucchini - some of which are only a matter of days.

The only non-organic matter is potassium that I bought from bunnings because the cucumbers were starting to get mildew - even then I think it is classified as organic.

Other than that I try to buy locally grown produce from our markets and of course free-range eggs.

I wouldn't pay that much for a chicken either The chicken I get is $12.99, so only $1 more than the pre cooked roast chooks from woolies. The wings are $5.99 per kg, same price as lenards, so for me it is about shopping around. Our organic food comes from Organic and Quality foods

Lisa

Our local shop doesn't stock freerange chicken and given that regular chicken is $17kg. Even if they stocked it, noone could afford it.

Our eggs come from my Nana's house and the only organic veggies our shop sells are carrots and (I think) mushrooms. Haven't noticed any others.

I think it's pretty obvious why we don't buy free-range/organic.

When I shop I honestly don't think it about those things, I just think about the price.

I shop with $$ on my mind. Every time.

Sad but true

To be honest, I rarely notice if there is any free range or organic meats around - not many around here or they don't push it anyway...and the organic produce here seems to be old and stale - obviously few buy it. When I lived in Townsville, the local Coles had a BIG section for Organic for about 6 months, but obviously wasn't profitable, because overnight it decreased to 1/4 the size.

I wouldn't know where to start with sourcing "ethical" products? or produce? How on earth would you know????

Tamm

I really hope that you are just sh*t-stiring Sceptical. Surely nobody can be that much of a prick.

For that price, do organic chickens taste any better? not in my experience. I bought one only once, because there were none defrosted of normal ones....tasted exactly the same...for 3 times the price!!
Wouldn't do it again.

Tamm

Where are you from? If you are in Sydney/ Melbourne or ACT, you may find some suitable information here (it is expanding for other areas!): SOLE Mama

Or try these:

The Eco Directory - Organic
The Organic Directory - Food
The Green Directory
Environment Society - Organic Directory
Fair Trade Assoc. of Australia
Ethicurean - Chew the Right Thing

Can someone tell me which certifiers are trustworthy?

I have seen so many lately that I am unsure now of which ones to trust.

I will only buy certified organic as just "organic" means nothing, according to food standards Australia.

But who/ which certification is "real"

Yes, I do love my inverted comma's " "

Believe it or not...quite a few of us live out of the range of the capital cities produce markets and even out of the "sydney, melb, Canberra" triangle

Tamm

Please elaborate on this comment. Is it because I said I would eat whale if it were offered to me? Cause you do understand in that context that the whale would already be dead, so its not like I sent them to catch some just for me? Its not like I would be creating a market to have a taste.

I quite often wonder what Dodo and Moa tasted like. Anything hunted to extinction in a short period had to taste good. I am sure within my lifetime whale will no longer be consumed as a food anywhere. So if I had the opportunity I would have tasted some. Curiosity you see, the same reason I've eaten snails, witchitygrubs, chicken feet, brains, etc. I'd eat swan if it wasn't illegal. Only the Queen can eat swan. They are Royal animals.

Sceptical Your bridge just called it wants its troll back!

Not caring about the suffering of another being is the definition of evil IMO.



Yes, I suspect so.

I unknowingly consumed whale when I lived in Japan and all I can say is

I thought it was horrible even before I knew what it was and was then physically sick when the man sitting next to me at the table proudly told me what it was.

It is like a really really really oily tuna.

Edited for grammar

Well that's your definition Sal, one that I don't share.

Can I point out, the OP of this thread was not to all the people who DO buy organic etc to come in here and pat each other on the back. It actually wanted to hear from the people that don't. Which Snowforest and I have answered honestly, only for us to be called horrible, evil, and (me) a troll.

Is it so hard for you to understand that not everyone shares your moral view of the world? You probably think having a baby without being married is no big deal, but I am horrified by that, just like I am by divorce. However, I don't give a sh*t about animals.

Which is not actually the same as saying I like to torture them. I am just comletely uninterested in any moral arguments towards animal consumption. I don't think it is relevant. I also think those that eat some types of meat and not others are making an absolutely arbitrary distinction that I do not believe is valid. So I would eat whale, and I wonder about Dodo.

Totally Off topic here.....but I am always facinated why we heap so much sh*t on Japan for hunting whales.....when Norway and several other nations kill far more whales then the Japanese??

Tamm

wow, the ship is sinking fast...

Actually only Norways quota is anywhere near equal to Japan's and Norway aren't a part of the commercial whaling moratorium. Japan kills a lot of whales under the guise of research which has been very contraversial.

Their research program is strongly suspected as a front for commercial whaling. The research sample sizes are needlessly large and the same information can be obtained by non-lethal means, for example by studying samples of whale tissue (such as skin) or faeces

Organic? PFFT give me a break i dont belive this is any healther than anything else. We grow peaches, nectorines, plums and apricots on our farm. So i understand compleatly what we put on them and also what our restrictions are on withholding timeframes. personly i think you are just being riped off.

i eat free range chicken if i buy one to cook but i dont think twice about getting KFC ect. i buy free range eggs unless im planning on doing heaps of baking. but they are the only things i put any thought into.

Oh i just wanted to add that i dont buy any friut from out of the country like the american greaps that are at the shops atm although i love it when we sell plenty of exported fruit OPEN YOUR DOOR CHINA!!!

tammIam, please don't turn my good intentions to provide links for you when I thought you were genuinely asking for help, into a stab against me that I am naive about the geographical diversity represented here on EB, or a snob to anyone outside city areas... I am neither. In fact, until not long ago, I was not from "Syd/ Melb/ Canberra triangle" myself. The first link I provided said 'if you are from...' and I also mentioned that there was intention to start covering other areas.

Those directories I provided links for do, in fact, cover some regional areas, and if you looked, you might be quite surprised. If I had the time, I would willingly help those who are interested.

This thread is from the Recipes section where people have talked about which FR or organic chicken actually tastes better...

I am not trying to be judgemental about NOT buying organic, I really dont care what other people do or dont buy, but I am wondering. How could people not think it is healthier???

I know that research into the vitamin content seems to vary, but isnt it logical that something that is covered in toxic chemicals is probly not the better option if one has one??

That is my reason for buying what I can, and I often cant. I am very aware that the produce I buy that is non organic needs very thorough washing.

FWIW, my husband is of the mindset that it is a ripoff. We dont agree.

Sorry Dixiebell - I didn't ask for the links you provided and no, I'm not interested....I just wondered how people found out that sort of info, so in the spirit of what you provided, appreciated. Thanks!
I did click on a few and found there are some places apparently around here, that one of the links showed.

1 plus 2 - yes, but Norway kills them specifically to eat and makes no bones about it? I dispute that Japan slaughters more, I am quite sure i read not too long ago that Norways kill per year is way more then Japans and they don't even try to pretend that it's not for eating!!! Same as some of the south american countries

I don't support Whaling AT ALL mind you - okay?!!

Tamm

Ah... late at night, sick with sick kids, missed that it was a rhetoric question!

But on that point, it is hard to know... after reading the Ethics of What We Eat, I am possibly more confused! I need to read it again, and also have some other books coming from the library. That is one way to know...

bliss - I have a couple of friends who are well qualified Dietitians, with Masters degrees too. They are both VERY health conscious and initially were right into the whole "organic" etc thing.......but over the years, after all the research that has been done, neither now promote it and neither believe it has any better nutritional content.

Thing is, it has been good to highlight the overuse of chemicals in/on our foods and in recent years, huge gains have been made in this area. Less spraying, more research to make naturally more resistent crops, more appropriate farming practices.......all THOSE things have made our everyday foods much healthier chemical wise....so it has been a good thing in that regard.

But no, I am one that does not believe it's "logical" to assume that just because something is "organic" it's healthier......it's the same argument across the board with the entire "but it's natural, it must be better" argument.

Doesn't wash with me, nor many of the experts nor much of the solid research either I'm afraid.

If they DO prove it's better, then I might consider it! But until then, I'm not wasting my money.

Tamm

Dixie - no worries! I guess you'd have to already be interested or contemplating the issue to read a book called "the ethics of what we eat"!! I couldn't imagine a more boring read myself...maybe if I'm locked in solitary confinement with that as my only reading material...I'd give it a stab But I'd rather sit on my verandah watch my gum tree grow to be truthful

Tamm

LOL Tamm I didn't think you were pro-whaling

The biggest reason why we don't take it up as much with Norway is that they are not bound by the International Whaling Commission moratorium. Also the whales that are hunted by the Norwegians (Minkes) aren't depleting in numbers like the whales hunted by the Japanese. The Japanese whaling has caused quite a few species to endangerment/ near extinction.

oh - I see - yes, I guess that's a good point (re the Whales not being hunted to extinction) Thanks for the explanation. Appreciated as that's always bothered me till now

Tamm

Tamm, I think I was saying(although its late) that I wasnt convinced about it being healthier, ie- more vitamins, but better as not so many chemicals. That, if one were to have the choice between the chemically covered fruit or the non chemically covered fruit, wouldnt it be a better option to choose the latter.

That said, I would be really interested to see what chemicals are now used in general fruit farming, beacuse as you mentioned, farming practices are improving all the time.

Much to learn.

That's what I thought too... but it was very interesting! It was originally recommended to me by someone here (Descentia?) but then I got it for free with G Magazine, or no, I probably wouldn't have sought it out either...

Because Japan lie about it and call it "scientific research". Where were they with the results of that "research" when Colleen was dying ? Not to mention they invade another country's territorial waters to do so. I bet if we went into their waters and started fishing they would have a few words to say.

I have more respect, even though I disagree with it, for Norway because they don't lie about why they hunt whale.

by the time they get to you at home the chemical has long gone let me just put it in perspective for you. we pick them and then have to put them in the cool room to get them to a low temp for the new cool store procedure that has just been introduced. they will sit in the cool room untill we get an order from our agent maybe upto 6 weeks or maybe the next day? then they are packed the following day and put on a truck that night to travel to either melborne or adelade the following day. they will then take another days travel to be then put in another cool room and then re packed back onto a truck and out to your supermarket. we arn't allowed to spray anything upto 14days before they are picked and are spot checked for residue along the food chain so yes i belive you are being riped off. you are getting second rate fruit and veg with no proof that its healthier. although alot of stone fruit growers are starting to use that same wax that is put on apples to give the shine. its put in the water during the packing process but we see this as a waist of money but who knows what the future holds??

Oh and i wash my fruit and veg before i eat it not becouse of the chemical but becouse i have caught too many of our backpacker workers not washing hands after the toilet! our permanents are very good as they want to keep the job but its the ones that follow the picking season arround the country each year that dont care if they keep the job or not.

Does anyone remember those reports around a while ago about the freshness (or lack of) of supermarket fruit and veg? I think it was on TT or similar

I remember they dated apples, potatoes etc and found them to be 8 months old, 6 months old. I wonder what kind of affect being in cold storage for so long has on nutrient content? Although people used to keep root vegetables in storage all winter, so maybe it was just the usual scaremongering.

Over the past couple of years I have moved towards locally produced, in season produce as much as possible. It is cheaper, tastes better usually and uses less fossil fuels for transport. I buy organic where possible as I prefer the taste, and am unconvinced by the 'no healthier' studies.

Dixibelle - thanks for those links, I have found them very useful.

Most areas, cities and rural do have farmers markets. You only need to google your area and I find them a lot cheaper than the supermarkets.



Taste is not that important, there are many great tasting foods out there, it's not like our tastebuds are being denied so there is absolutely no reason for an animal to be hunted to extinction.

I also found the links useful DB. Am going to look for a copy of Ethics of What We Eat

One thing I can't wait to do is to start going to Farmers Markets back in Oz.

Dixiebelle, I gave away my copy of TEOWWE in a comp on my blog. I figured I had read it and it was time to pass it on to someone else to read.

Organic foods from the shops? Well I will be completely honest here as I have been on my blog and in the environmental section.

I choose to buy Australian first. Yes I am concerned about witholding times and long storage as per Mamfa's post



But I am very very worried about what is happening to the world economy. I want to boost Australian growers any which way I can right now as I see that market insecurities and worldwide famines will mean that we will have to depend upon our local growers.

No way do I want to see mature Australian fruit trees ripped out due to being financially unviable.

Now I get my organic vegies from my own garden as I am a bit obsessed about gardening.

Meat, well I am a vegetarian. Animal cruelty is a terrible practice and I would like to see everyone become vegetarian. Howvever, people like to eat meat so in a perfect omnivore world people would keep their own chickens, rabbits, goats etc and raise them for their own food consumption needs. That way you would get your organic meat fix and the animal would be kept in an humane manner.

My first priority for EB'ers would be trying to support them in their attempts to grow their own foods and make local purchasing connections to minimise their dependency on the teetering global food chain.

Wow, really?

No matter what your eating strategy - be it meat eater, vego, vegan etc - don't you want to eat ethically?

I first spoke about this book on here a couple of years ago, but it didn't spark much interest on here at the time. I thought it was fascinating and a really good read. I recommend it to anybody and everybody, no matter where they sit on the food debate. It doesn't tell you NOT to eat anything and isn't directive - it just provides information about food that most people do not know. It give you information so you can make informed decisions about what to eat.

I guess people would prefer to pretend that all food is ethical to begin with?